Re: Random thought...

["Dan \"Effugas\" Kaminsky" <effugas best com>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Vogt <tom@lemuria.org>
To: gnome-gui-list@gnome.org <gnome-gui-list@gnome.org>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Random thought...


>Dan Effugas Kaminsky <effugas@best.com> wrote:
>> >ehm - I thought a while ago we discussed the problem wiht "target
>> audience"?
>> >:)
>>
>> Yeah, but that was before I got jawdrop reactions from users when I said
>> "People on the gnome list think compatibility with other interfaces is
too
>> stupid to argue about".  ;-)
>
>who ever said that? I remember that a few people - me among them - argued
>that compatibility to other ui isn't a holy cow and we should be guided by
>our own things more than by that. but more than that? can you point me to
>the mail where someone said that?


Yeah.  I think it was Sun who said nearly those exact words--"Compatibility
with other HCI standards is too stupid an argument to discuss".  I'll
private email you the quote if you don't believe me--such hyperbole I
wouldn't make up.

Compatibility with other UI isn't a holy cow, but it ain't a non-issue.  The
Lawyers Use Wordperfect discussion on Slashdot brought up examples of how
lawyers have stuck with Wordperfect because that's what they're used to, and
how there are many offices which have a specific word processing program for
the specific reason that they're keystroke compatible with word processors
from the SEVENTIES.

Maybe we can make something better.  No--we probably CAN make something
better.  But if we don't take into account that there are people who are
used to what they have now, and just want to get rid of the crashes, bugs,
and information hiding interfaces, we're gonna lose this battle.

>
>> We have an audience.  We have *users*.  Pragmatism, man.  That's *why*
Linux
>> is growing.  Ignore and diez!
>
>that's exactly what we're doing. going our way, see. that's another reason
>why Linux is growing. :)


Huh?  You lost me.

>
>> >3-button emulation isn't a problem. you just click right between them
two
>> >and unless  you have REALLY small fingers  and/or a really bad mouse,
both
>> >buttons will go down.
>>
>> This isn't the same as having three buttons.  Think about what would
happen
>> in a game if you attempt to emulate the middle button like this...won't
>> work.
>
>actually - it would. the app/game would never see the difference.


Nope...true three button commands let you do things like "if all three
buttons are hit simultaneously, do X".  You can't emulate that with 2
buttons.  Best example I can think of--lets say you have shoot bound to
Mouse1, jump bound to Mouse2, and magic bound to Mouse3.  What happens when
you get rid of the 3rd middle button and attempt to emulate by
right-then-left clicking?  Do you jump and shoot?  Or do you cast magic?

>
>> Point is, the best you ever get is like 2.5 buttons...
>
>true, it's not quite like having 3 buttons, but it works good.


See above.

>
>> I don't mind this...I
>> DO mind when critical functionality's best access point becomes the
middle
>> button.  Right click is critical, move/paste/etc. isn't.  Removing the
>> scroll bars WOULD make the middle button critical, btw.
>
>as far as I remember, nobody talked about taking away the scrollbars. can
>you find the mail where somebody said that? not trying to be aggressive or
>anything, but I've got the impression you're working so hard on the uisg
>that you don't read all mails carefully anymore.


I was attempting to define what "critical functionality" meant.  See, this
entire time I'm splitting one major hair--I have no problem with 3rd or 4th
or 100th button functionality, as long as it's not critical to the
interface.  But, I had a little problem.  I had never stated a change that
would make a non-critical interface element(middle button = scroll) a
critical one(middle button = only easy way to scroll).  So I did.

I understand your confusion, however.  Perfectly logical to infer that I was
responding to someone who had said something that you had never seen said.


>
>--
>Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> -- Henry Spencer
>
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