Re: To answer your question about the upcoming Style-Guide...

["Dan Kaminsky" <effugas best com>]

>along these lines, i think i ought to again suggest that the gnome panel
>be on the right side of the screen by default. i mentioned it once
>before and got an agreement, but i've since gotten so used to it being
>there, unobtrusively, even aesthetically pleasing, that i don't even
>like to use kde solely on the basis that their panel _doesn't_ go on the
>right side of the screen. :)
>
>arguments for having the panel on the right side of the screen:
>
>* vertical space is more valuable on the desktop than horizontal space,
>since webpages and text documents are usually of an arbitrary width and
>scrolled vertically. putting the panel on the right side reclaims some
>of that valuable space from the top or bottom of the screen.


True.  There's also some physiological evidence in that vision is wider than
it is tall, peripheral vision is more effective horizontally than
vertically, and it's plain easier to move your eyes left/right than up/down.

>* it will bring the importance of "flippable" applets (like modemlights
>& drivemount) to the attention of developers (in contrast to cpu/mem
>monitor and webcontrol applets, which are horizontal-only)


The bar should be movable, just like the Windows bar.

The only problem I have is that it's harder to have an effective stderr box
on a vertical screen...bleagh, we'll see how the mockups turn out.

>> >i give up: wanda the gnome fish for the afterstep/windowmaker dock? a
>> >gnome panel that collapses to a user-definable percentage of screen
>> >width/height? the latter would be useful but not vastly different from
>> >what we have now; the former would be no different from what we have
>> >now.
>>
>> You'll see.  I got my screenshot drop from Soren, so :-D
>
>okay, we're curious already. :) url?


I'm working on it.  I think the graphic is up to around 20 layers :-)  It's
apparently more evolutionary than revolutionary, but I'm hoping it'll be
popular enough to get implemented.

Gimme a little more time, I'm working on it.

>> I see Redhat and GNOME becoming like Netscape with Mozilla.  Support,
>> direct, contribute, and take the finished product and spread it
throughout
>> the marketplace.  If you don't think GNOME is going to have a standard
WM,
>> you're kidding yourself.  Whatever comes in Redhat 5.2 or 6.0 is going to
be
>> the standard GNOME WM.  The E guy *is* working for Redhat.  What's
different
>> is UNLIKE KDE, Gnome apps will run under any WM.  That's pretty critical.
>
>i've successfully run most of the kde apps under windowmaker, afterstep,
>kwm, fvwm2, enlightenment, and twm, so i would suggest the difference is
>not that kde _requires_ usage of its native window manager, but that it
>_provides_ a native window manager for any that want to use it. the
>gnome project doesn't "claim" any one window manager; if one becomes a
>de facto standard because it happens to ship with redhat 6.0, i don't
>think it will be because of any explicitly stated support from the gnome
>project.


Guess who was wrong :-)

>i do, however, think that if somebody comes up with a simple window
>manager that uses gtk widgets for its right-clickable menus,
>configuration dialog boxes, etc, it will likely become popular quickly
>for its unity with the gnome desktop, especially once gtk+ becomes
>themeable. again, that won't be due to any explicitly stated support
>from the gnome project, and all windowmanagers will have an equal shot
>at the golden prize (if one does pull ahead of the pack).


Agreed.

>> Yes, it's convenient, but it's awful default behavior except for the most
>> critical of applications.
>>
>> Perhaps, and this is a maybe, we should have a specific set of apps that
>> are, by default, on the toolbar.  (Smaller, by the way.  Please.)
Netscape,
>> xterm, Midnight Commander make good options.
>
>yeh, this is what i was thinking above. take a poll; i doubt there are
>many of us who don't have an xterm or rxvt on our windowmaker dock,
>afterstep dock, or gnome panel. also, as i mentioned, a clock, mailcheck
>applet, or cpu monitor are very popular.


Agreed again.

>> >you might be surprised to learn that i've "converted" several friends to
>> >linux on the basis of this one windowmanager alone, and that there are
>> >many people who find it very useable in spite of (because of?) what you
>> >surely would call clutter.
>>
>> What resolution were your friends running at?  Just a curiousity question
>> before I respond.
>
>800x600 (on my laptop) and higher. in all fairness, i should concede
>that i'm trying to figure out how to turn _off_ all those launcher
>buttons, but that's just because i want to run the gnome panel as a
>replacement and that will have its own set of launcher buttons. :)


;-)

>so when do we get a sneak peek at project X? i'm still waiting for wanda
>the gnome fish for my windowmaker dock... :)


I'll try tonight or tommorow night.  I'm sad, I thought it was more
revolutionary than it really was, but the mockup should contain most of the
stuff I've been discussing so that should make it cooler to non
gnome-gui'ers.