From kaustubh.atrawalkar@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 06:01:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78F27501C9 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:01:10 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.167 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.167 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_10_20=1.351, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 9365 hrs), (distance 13, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.146.176] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8l9JVr10eoBe for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:01:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.176]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DFD750215 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:01:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so3012614wah.1 for ; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.58.6 with SMTP id g6mr14018176waa.138.1207116064470; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.55.20 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:31:04 +0530 From: "Kaustubh Atrawalkar" To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Motorola splits - consequences for LiMo? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_51_33028592.1207116064471" X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 06:01:10 -0000 ------=_Part_51_33028592.1207116064471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Just for your curiosity there is one more major player in the race. which is in LiMo team. "Azingo." This is developing & creating the whole Linux based mobile platform scratch from kernel to applications.Have a look - http://azingo.com/ ------=_Part_51_33028592.1207116064471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Just for your curiosity there is one more major player in the race. which is in LiMo team.
"Azingo." This is developing & creating the whole Linux based mobile platform scratch from kernel
to applications.Have a look - http://azingo.com/
------=_Part_51_33028592.1207116064471-- From David.Schlesinger@access-company.com Wed Apr 2 06:03:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F07750215 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:03:13 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 3124 hrs), (distance 12, link: ethernet/modem), [12.7.175.32] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PpPzmY7aaXF4 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:03:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx3.access-company.com (mx4.access-company.com [12.7.175.32]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFEC75025A for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:03:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ussunex02.svl.access-company.com ([192.168.101.10]) by mx4.access-company.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m32634EY014759; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:03:04 -0700 Received: from ussunowa1.svl.access-company.com ([10.0.20.19]) by ussunex02.svl.access-company.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:03:04 -0700 Received: from [10.0.1.4] ([68.126.204.71] RDNS failed) by ussunowa1.svl.access-company.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:03:04 -0700 Message-ID: <47F32185.50401@access-company.com> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:02:45 -0700 From: "David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kaustubh Atrawalkar Subject: Re: Motorola splits - consequences for LiMo? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2008 06:03:04.0282 (UTC) FILETIME=[36E963A0:01C89487] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=4.65.7111:2.4.4, 1.2.40, 4.0.164 definitions=2008-04-02_01:2008-03-31, 2008-04-02, 2008-03-31 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=3.1.0-0803050000 definitions=main-0804010232 Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 06:03:13 -0000 Kaustubh Atrawalkar wrote: > Just for your curiosity there is one more major player in the race. > which is in LiMo team. > "Azingo." This is developing & creating the whole Linux based mobile > platform scratch from kernel > to applications.Have a look - http://azingo.com/ Azingo is only one member of LiMo, there are many others, including ACCESS, Motorola, Samsung, NTT Docomo, LG, Aplix, and numerous others. From quim.gil@nokia.com Wed Apr 2 07:03:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673EA75026E for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:03:37 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.691 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.691 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) (up: 2388 hrs), (distance 15, link: ethernet/modem), [192.100.122.233] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kkrmS-2wKDCA for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:03:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE3E75025A for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:03:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m3273Pfd009893; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:03:28 +0300 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:03:19 +0300 Received: from mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.96]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:03:18 +0300 Received: from [172.21.35.60] (esdhcp03560.research.nokia.com [172.21.35.60]) by mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id m3273Hcv020704; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:03:17 +0300 Message-ID: <47F33020.70005@nokia.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:05:04 +0300 From: Quim Gil User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ext Kaustubh Atrawalkar Subject: Re: Motorola splits - consequences for LiMo? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2008 07:03:18.0504 (UTC) FILETIME=[A127E680:01C8948F] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 07:03:37 -0000 Hi, ext Kaustubh Atrawalkar wrote: > Just for your curiosity there is one more major player in the race. > which is in LiMo team. > "Azingo." This is developing & creating the whole Linux based mobile > platform scratch from kernel > to applications.Have a look - http://azingo.com/ Out of curiosity (or my own ignorance): what makes Azingo a major player? I'm really asking. After following their presentation as well as those from other LiMo players in OSiM USA (where I was hoping to meet Lefty over beers btw) :) I couldn't avoid thinking about what was their approach to this business, what is their role, how are they playing with the software components (and projects/people behind), who are their clients or potential clients in this game... It's clear what is the role and business in LiMo of i.e. ACCESS, Motorola, Samsung, NTT Docomo, LG... but it would be helpful to know more about the role of i.e. Azingo and how their work relates to i.e. GNOME Mobile, since they are also working on platform integration. Quim From nearyd@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:31:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CDC3750073 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 21:31:08 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.492 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.752, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 2311 hrs), (distance 16, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.182.189] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id POifq6FUfC64 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 21:31:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C161B750069 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 21:31:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id f5so1284101nfh.23 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.183.20 with SMTP id g20mr29614555huf.31.1207171859033; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.64? ( [88.163.116.163]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i5sm8406002mue.7.2008.04.02.14.30.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47F3DA92.4000701@gnome.org> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:12:18 +0200 From: Dave Neary Organization: GNOME Foundation User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Writing a press release pre-summit? References: <47ECDC47.7010303@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <47ECDC47.7010303@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: Dave Neary X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: bolsh@gnome.org List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:31:08 -0000 Hi, Taking into account Lefty's excellent comments, here's another draft - if there are no objections I will try to get this up on gnome.org tomorrow. Cheers, Dave. 3rd GNOME Mobile Summit to be held in Austin ============================================ The 3rd GNOME Mobile Summit being held as part of the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit in Austin from the 8th to the 10th of April will be a forum where industry and community merge into one, enabling effective collaboration on adapting the GNOME platform to the needs of mobile computing. The GNOME Mobile Initiative, which first met at GUADEC, the GNOME Users' and Developers' European Conference in 2006 and publicly launched in April 2007, is a community effort to ensure that free and open source software is optimized for the growing Linux-based mobile device space. The Initiative has already had several meetings, both formally and informally, and garnered considerable community and industry support. Dave Neary, the co-ordinator of the GNOME Mobile track at the summit, believes that this meeting will accelerate the adoption of the GNOME platform on mobile devices. “Members of the GNOME Mobile group have been realising the leverage that collaborating closely with a free software community can give. Improved time to market, reduced R&D and maintenance costs, and above all, a highly performant and capable application platform on which to build your applications.” Up to this point, the focus has been on co-ordinating integration efforts and reducing the amount of code being maintained outside the project, but that focus is expected to change as the initiative continues to mature and grow. Ross Burton of OpenedHand, recently appointed release manager of the initiative, outlines his plans for the future of the project: “We are now moving beyond the initial phase of co-operation which consisted in people centralising work which they had been doing inside their companies to the core products. The next step is a roadmap which will systematically address the needs of consumers of the GNOME Mobile platform and ensure that the work is done in the community, and the creation of a mobile-specific release set of GNOME and GNOME-related projects.” GNOME Mobile has a growing number of members, including industry heavyweights such as Nokia, ACCESS and FIC, the support of mobile consortia LiPS, the Linux Foundation’s MLI and Moblin, and a growing number of independent developers and community projects. "The GNOME Mobile Initiative is at the heart of almost every important open source mobile effort going on in the industry today. The mainstream free software technologies such as GTK+, Gstreamer, matchbox and many other vibrant community-based projects are the linchpins of efforts like the ACCESS Linux Platform, Nokia's Maemo platform, and the LiMo Foundation Platform. GNOME Mobile is the leading edge of development for the most exciting device space in decades, the rapidly growing world of open source-based mobile devices," said David "Lefty" Schlesinger, Director of Open Source Technologies for ACCESS Co., Ltd., and a member of the LiMo Foundation Architectural Council. For more information, and for press enquiries, please contact gnome-press-contact@gnome.org -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member bolsh@gnome.org From David.Schlesinger@access-company.com Sat Apr 5 13:27:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28128750108 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:27:24 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_60=1] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 3203 hrs), (distance 12, link: ethernet/modem), [12.7.175.33] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xf1RMzf8OBT8 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:27:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx3.access-company.com (mx5.access-company.com [12.7.175.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE523750112 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:27:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ussunex02.svl.access-company.com ([192.168.101.10]) by mx5.access-company.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m35DRH0s007556 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2008 06:27:17 -0700 Received: from ussunowa1.svl.access-company.com ([10.0.20.19]) by ussunex02.svl.access-company.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 5 Apr 2008 06:27:16 -0700 Received: from [10.0.1.4] ([68.126.195.43] RDNS failed) by ussunowa1.svl.access-company.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 5 Apr 2008 06:27:16 -0700 Message-ID: <47F77E0F.6060405@access-company.com> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 06:26:39 -0700 From: "David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Is Android Intended to _Create_ Fragmentation? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2008 13:27:16.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3FE26E0:01C89720] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=4.65.7111:2.4.4, 1.2.40, 4.0.164 definitions=2008-04-05_01:2008-04-04, 2008-04-05, 2008-04-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=3.1.0-0803050000 definitions=main-0804050051 X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:27:24 -0000 An interesting article, with a direct quote to that effect from Sanjay Jha, COO of Qualcomm (a proud member of OHA), in The Register, at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/03/android_qualcomm/ This supports my thinking about Android, and maybe even exceeds my estimations of Google's cynicism toward the real open source community. It wasn't that the existing efforts "weren't good enough", as Google's been claiming, nor that the existing initiatives "weren't moving fast enough". It's that they weren't _Google--controlled_ enough, and they didn't create enough of a situation where only web-based approaches (a strength of Google's) could really thrive. So much for "Don't be evil", I guess. From sampo.nurmentaus@movial.fi Sun Apr 6 11:18:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B427514AC for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:06:06 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.219 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.995, BAYES_40=-0.185, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e5+4IYbVpUX2 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:05:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.movial.fi (smtp.movial.fi [62.236.91.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815CA32AE95 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 05:44:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (mailscanner.hel.movial.fi [172.17.81.9]) by smtp.movial.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EA7C8101; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 05:44:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at movial.fi Received: from smtp.movial.fi ([62.236.91.34]) by localhost (mailscanner.hel.movial.fi [172.17.81.9]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id bwi8MWs-vipH; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:44:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost (ext-ssh.movial.fi [62.236.91.4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.movial.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6471BC808D; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 05:44:51 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:42:53 +0300 (EEST) From: sampo.nurmentaus@movial.fi X-X-Sender: snurment@sl010.hel.movial.fi To: "David \\\"Lefty\\\" Schlesinger" Subject: Re: Is Android Intended to _Create_ Fragmentation? In-Reply-To: <47F77E0F.6060405@access-company.com> Message-ID: References: <47F77E0F.6060405@access-company.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:18:01 -0000 Must say that I fully agree on the fragmentation point. My first tought when I first had a look at Android was that this is the least thing that the community needs. Well, ofcourse the good side of the story is that Google put Linux to the center of the mobile world. And I do agree that Web 2.0 / AJAX are the service technologies of tomorrow. Those won't alone solve the fragmentation problem, but will make it easier for an operator to launch services across different devices We gnome folks are of course the good guys fighting the fragmentation of the market place. "We are not evil!" :-) Br, Sampo > An interesting article, with a direct quote to that effect from Sanjay > Jha, COO of Qualcomm (a proud member of OHA), in The Register, at > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/03/android_qualcomm/ > > This supports my thinking about Android, and maybe even exceeds my > estimations of Google's cynicism toward the real open source community. > It wasn't that the existing efforts "weren't good enough", as Google's > been claiming, nor that the existing initiatives "weren't moving fast > enough". It's that they weren't _Google--controlled_ enough, and they > didn't create enough of a situation where only web-based approaches (a > strength of Google's) could really thrive. > > So much for "Don't be evil", I guess. > > _______________________________________________ > mobile-devel-list mailing list > mobile-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-devel-list > From nearyd@gmail.com Sun Apr 6 19:36:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8698B750050 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:36:54 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.492 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.752, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 5304 hrs), (distance 19, link: (Google 2)), [72.14.220.158] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GfLiQiWWIXFv for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:36:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C635775007A for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:36:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so7132136fga.33 for ; Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.173.1 with SMTP id v1mr7209983bue.11.1207510605270; Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.64? ( [88.163.116.163]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j10sm9592934muh.16.2008.04.06.12.36.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47F9264A.6020403@gnome.org> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 21:36:42 +0200 From: Dave Neary Organization: GNOME Foundation User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Writing a press release pre-summit? References: <47ECDC47.7010303@free.fr> <47F3DA92.4000701@gnome.org> In-Reply-To: <47F3DA92.4000701@gnome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: Dave Neary X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: bolsh@gnome.org List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:36:54 -0000 Hi, The release is live (sorry for the delay, I was waiting for a quote to clear). http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/2008-04-mobilesummit.html See you all in Austin next week! Cheers, Dave. Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Taking into account Lefty's excellent comments, here's another draft - > if there are no objections I will try to get this up on gnome.org tomorrow. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > 3rd GNOME Mobile Summit to be held in Austin > ============================================ > > The 3rd GNOME Mobile Summit being held as part of the Linux Foundation > Collaboration Summit in Austin from the 8th to the 10th of April will be > a forum where industry and community merge into one, enabling effective > collaboration on adapting the GNOME platform to the needs of mobile > computing. > > The GNOME Mobile Initiative, which first met at GUADEC, the GNOME Users' > and Developers' European Conference in 2006 and publicly launched in > April 2007, is a community effort to ensure that free and open source > software is optimized for the growing Linux-based mobile device space. > The Initiative has already had several meetings, both formally and > informally, and garnered considerable community and industry support. > > Dave Neary, the co-ordinator of the GNOME Mobile track at the summit, > believes that this meeting will accelerate the adoption of the GNOME > platform on mobile devices. “Members of the GNOME Mobile group have been > realising the leverage that collaborating closely with a free software > community can give. Improved time to market, reduced R&D and maintenance > costs, and above all, a highly performant and capable application > platform on which to build your applications.” > > Up to this point, the focus has been on co-ordinating integration > efforts and reducing the amount of code being maintained outside the > project, but that focus is expected to change as the initiative > continues to mature and grow. > > Ross Burton of OpenedHand, recently appointed release manager of the > initiative, outlines his plans for the future of the project: “We are > now moving beyond the initial phase of co-operation which consisted in > people centralising work which they had been doing inside their > companies to the core products. The next step is a roadmap which will > systematically address the needs of consumers of the GNOME Mobile > platform and ensure that the work is done in the community, and the > creation of a mobile-specific release set of GNOME and GNOME-related > projects.” > > GNOME Mobile has a growing number of members, including industry > heavyweights such as Nokia, ACCESS and FIC, the support of mobile > consortia LiPS, the Linux Foundation’s MLI and Moblin, and a growing > number of independent developers and community projects. > > "The GNOME Mobile Initiative is at the heart of almost every important > open source mobile effort going on in the industry today. The mainstream > free software technologies such as GTK+, Gstreamer, matchbox and many > other vibrant community-based projects are the linchpins of efforts like > the ACCESS Linux Platform, Nokia's Maemo platform, and the LiMo > Foundation Platform. GNOME Mobile is the leading edge of development for > the most exciting device space in decades, the rapidly growing world of > open source-based mobile devices," said David "Lefty" Schlesinger, > Director of Open Source Technologies for ACCESS Co., Ltd., and a member > of the LiMo Foundation Architectural Council. > > For more information, and for press enquiries, please contact > gnome-press-contact@gnome.org > > > -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member bolsh@gnome.org From kalle.vahlman@gmail.com Mon Apr 7 10:33:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55AB175007F for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:33:43 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.175 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.175 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.990, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 8615 hrs), (distance 15, link: (Google 2)), [66.249.82.236] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pO2esjIuDv30 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:33:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.236]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B14B750060 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:33:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h26so1205929wxd.9 for ; Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.87.13 with SMTP id p13mr1253253rvl.295.1207564416199; Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.127.4 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 03:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <177e83dd0804070333n22f5635vd6cb2308642341b2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 13:33:36 +0300 From: "Kalle Vahlman" To: "sampo.nurmentaus@movial.fi" Subject: Re: Is Android Intended to _Create_ Fragmentation? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47F77E0F.6060405@access-company.com> Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: zuh@iki.fi List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:33:43 -0000 2008/4/6, sampo.nurmentaus@movial.fi : [snip] > We gnome folks are of course the good guys fighting the fragmentation > of the market place. "We are not evil!" :-) Yeah, we'll be happy when everybody is using a single platform without alternatives, most unlike how the OS giant we all love to hate did it's thing... Oh wait! (and I'm only half kidding...) Seriously though, it seems to me that "fragmentation in the market place" is more a problem when two companies work on (for example) GTK+ but do not coordinate, not that there is a GTK+-based platform and a Java based platform. The community that you refer to (assuming it's the OSS one...) already has embraced the diversity as a good thing and different DE:s, frameworks and projects are focusing efforts in common base libraries and specs. For example cairo is starting to be a very common 2D graphics backend (GTK+, WebKit, Clutter, etc), different freedesktop specifications are widely implemented and so on. And indeed, also Android is using some common components under the hood (sqlite, freetype). So in my opinion to fight fragmentation you need to embrace diversity, not create a monopoly. Considering this, and assuming Google also works with the upstream on the common libraries and not just their Java API to it, I think Android is a quite welcome addition to the mobile world. It gives a viable alternative to those that consider Java the only way to develop. As a developer in the mobile field, and as a hacker for such devices, I can assure you that it's not the multitude of UI frameworks that hinders the development process. It's the _fragmentation_ of HW interfaces that hurts the industry most. I strongly believe that if only HW vendors would embrace _diversity_ and provide proven[1] interfaces to their devices, the mobile linux industry would really start to flourish. [1] either official specs like OpenMAX or de facto standards like kernel INPUT drivers -- Kalle Vahlman, zuh@iki.fi Powered by http://movial.fi Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi From Carlos.Guerreiro@nokia.com Mon Apr 7 15:29:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000227500C2 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:29:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.909 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) (up: 3678 hrs), (distance 26, link: ethernet/modem), [192.100.122.230] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R7ZXEX2MLenF for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:29:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6795B7500B6 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:29:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m37FTX4T006644 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:29:45 +0300 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:28:42 +0300 Received: from esebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.215]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:28:42 +0300 Received: from [172.21.37.187] ([172.21.37.187]) by esebe101.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:28:42 +0300 Message-ID: <47FA3DAC.3000503@nokia.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:28:44 +0300 From: Carlos Guerreiro User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (X11/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Missing the Linux Collaboration Summit References: <47ECDC47.7010303@free.fr> <47F3DA92.4000701@gnome.org> <47F9264A.6020403@gnome.org> In-Reply-To: <47F9264A.6020403@gnome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2008 15:28:42.0506 (UTC) FILETIME=[0FBC26A0:01C898C4] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:29:57 -0000 Hi, Unfortunately I'm going to miss this year's Linux Collaboration Summit. Things are hectic around here and even though I was all booked I couldn't afford to go this year :-( Now, if a phone conference could be arranged I'd join the GNOME Mobile Meeting on the phone. Br, Carlos From jdub@bethesignal.org Mon Apr 7 15:34:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450FC750075 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:34:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.605 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (up: 559 hrs), (distance 11, link: ethernet/modem), [70.85.31.216] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QkkXEmSBJNT7 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:33:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C1C7501AB for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:33:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (home.waugh.id.au [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E0D13CCBB for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:33:43 +1000 (EST) Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C704257E13; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:33:56 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:33:56 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Missing the Linux Collaboration Summit Message-ID: <20080407153356.GE7357@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org References: <47ECDC47.7010303@free.fr> <47F3DA92.4000701@gnome.org> <47F9264A.6020403@gnome.org> <47FA3DAC.3000503@nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47FA3DAC.3000503@nokia.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.24-12-generic i686 Jabber-ID: jdub@gnome.org X-Uptime: 01:33:19 up 4 days, 6:37, 5 users, load average: 1.00, 1.03, 1.07 Reply-By: Fri Apr 11 01:33:19 EST 2008 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:34:04 -0000 > Unfortunately I'm going to miss this year's Linux Collaboration Summit. > Things are hectic around here and even though I was all booked I couldn't > afford to go this year :-( Same -- though I knew I'd be hammered, so didn't book. :-) > Now, if a phone conference could be arranged I'd join the GNOME Mobile > Meeting on the phone. That would be great! - Jeff -- GUADEC 2008: Istanbul, Turkey http://www.guadec.org/ "Oh my god, if I get killed, Meryl Streep will get an award playing my life and I would be really pissed off." - Susan Sarandon From Timothy.Bird@am.sony.com Mon Apr 7 17:16:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D20A750075 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:37 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (NAT!) (up: 7227 hrs), (distance 19, link: GPRS, T1, FreeS/WAN), [216.32.181.16] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TNEtghnpdgiK for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from outbound6-wa4-R.bigfish.com (outbound-wa4.frontbridge.com [216.32.181.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282FB750050 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from outbound6-wa4.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by outbound6-wa4-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977E01869F7D; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail135-wa4-R.bigfish.com (si1-wa4 [10.8.14.5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by outbound6-wa4.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9610916806D; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail135-wa4 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail135-wa4-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDA7D10A60; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:28 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP X-MS-Exchange-Organization-Antispam-Report: OrigIP: 160.33.98.75;Service: EHS Received: by mail135-wa4 (MessageSwitch) id 1207588588161679_28773; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:28 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (mail8.fw-bc.sony.com [160.33.98.75]) by mail135-wa4.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC7B317000BE; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.211]) by mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m37HGQu6021943; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:26 GMT Received: from USSDIXIM01.am.sony.com (ussdixim01.am.sony.com [43.130.140.33]) by mail3.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m37HGNww029477; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:16:26 GMT Received: from ussdixms03.am.sony.com ([43.130.140.23]) by USSDIXIM01.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:16:20 -0700 Received: from timdesk.am.sony.com ([43.135.148.222]) by ussdixms03.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:16:15 -0700 Message-ID: <47FA5641.3040506@am.sony.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:13:37 -0700 From: Tim Bird User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070926) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger" Subject: Re: Is Android Intended to _Create_ Fragmentation? References: <47F77E0F.6060405@access-company.com> In-Reply-To: <47F77E0F.6060405@access-company.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2008 17:16:15.0275 (UTC) FILETIME=[15E28FB0:01C898D3] Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:16:37 -0000 David "Lefty" Schlesinger wrote: > An interesting article, with a direct quote to that effect from Sanjay > Jha, COO of Qualcomm (a proud member of OHA), in The Register, at > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/03/android_qualcomm/ > > This supports my thinking about Android, and maybe even exceeds my > estimations of Google's cynicism toward the real open source community. > It wasn't that the existing efforts "weren't good enough", as Google's > been claiming, nor that the existing initiatives "weren't moving fast > enough". It's that they weren't _Google--controlled_ enough, and they > didn't create enough of a situation where only web-based approaches (a > strength of Google's) could really thrive. > > So much for "Don't be evil", I guess. Call me naive, but I didn't get the same sense from the article. To people steeped in Microsoft, "enhancing fragmentation" can just as well mean "avoiding a Microsoft monopoly." This seems to me to be the sense of Sanjay's quote. From the Linux side, Android looks like an attempt to fragment Linux offerings, but viewed from the wider context, Android looks like another push for Linux to balance the overall mobile OS playing field. Of course above the kernel and up into the stacks, the whole philosphy of Android - of avoiding native apps completely - is interesting, and competes with other open source offerings. Whether it will fly is a different question. (My 2 cents is that I don't think it will.) I think we're already well on our way to another Unix war with Linux in the mobile space, and Google doing it's own thing is another nail in the coffin, but there was massive fragmentation already before they joined the party, so one can't lay all the blame at their feet. Everyone who's started a Linux mobile initiative in the last 4 years (CELF included) bears some responsibility for the current situation. -- Tim ============================= Tim Bird Architecture Group Chair, CE Linux Forum Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Corporation of America ============================= From alp@webkit.org Wed Apr 16 07:10:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC97275007D; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:10:11 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.417 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.417 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.945, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, TW_GT=0.077] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (NAT!) (up: 4082 hrs), (distance 14, link: GPRS, T1, FreeS/WAN), [83.245.1.230] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Pa5JymmjaOa; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:10:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bdmail1.accesst.com (pop.bulldoghome.com [83.245.1.230]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BA4750232; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:10:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from host-84-9-46-160.dslgb.com ([84.9.46.160] helo=ndesk.org) by bdmail1.accesst.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.50) id 1Jm1gc-00053M-TL; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:04:07 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by ndesk.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD28297188; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:09:58 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:10:30 +0100 From: Alp Toker User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "desktop-devel-list@gnome.org" Subject: WebKit release cycle and dependency request Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:10:12 -0000 You may already have heard that the WebKit/GTK+ developers have been exploring options for a release cycle. Here I'm going to outline our plans in a little more detail. WebKit/GTK+ is a community sub-project maintained mostly by GNOME and GTK+ developers. It's implemented directly on top of GTK+, GLib and GNOME libraries and provides lightweight web viewing and editing features as well as being the basis for complete web browser applications. It supports the latest web standards and offers good performance and memory usage characteristics on the desktop and in mobile devices. As a result of the productive collaboration with the GNOME project and after consultation with the GNOME board and release team, we've decided to implement a stable 6-month release cycle that matches the GNOME schedule, effective immediately, targeting the upcoming 2.24 release. I'm also taking this opportunity to request an external dependency for GNOME and to poke Ross about including WebKit in the Mobile Platform (not much happened since it was proposed in June). Module versioning ================= The package name is webkit-1.0. Shared objects and headers are named and versioned according to GTK+ platform and module guidelines. API/ABI stability ================= The API is currently "slushy" so we'll make a few tweaks to the loader API (as requested by the Epiphany developers) and add more features before freezing for 2.24. In the past we've taken care to fix applications directly in GNOME SVN following API changes made in the development cycle. Once stabilised, we'll follow a policy of additions only, with old symbols marked deprecated in gtk-doc. Documentation ============= There's a coding guideline requiring all functions, properties and signals to be documented with gtk-doc so the documentation situation is pretty good. Furthermore, public API changes are expected to be accompanied by a rationale and "cooling off" period allowing the community to study them before they're reviewed and go in so there's usually a trail describing why things are the way they are. GDK targets =========== WebKit works with all platforms and windowing targets supported by GDK and provides the same stable GObject API everywhere. (Windows support is still in development but not far off.) Language bindings ================= WebKit bindings are available for Python, C#/CLR, Vala and Perl. Some of the bindings cover not just the GObject API but also provide integration with the browser engine. WebKit is designed to be extensible using any supported language via DOM access and bi-directional runtime integration -- "extension" or add-in systems aren't limited to JavaScript. Mobile ====== WebKit/GTK+ is the default browser engine in the OpenMoko and Poky mobile Linux distributions. There's ongoing work to develop WebKit/GTK+ for the Maemo platform and a couple of other upcoming mobile GTK+ deployments yet to be announced. Ports exist to over a dozen devices including phones, e-paper readers and set top boxes. Accessibility ============= In the last few weeks we've started to look at formal accessibility support for document navigation and manipulation. The first WebCore patches have landed and we intend to provide AT-SPI accessibility for the 2.24 release. This is partly in response to requests from the community and Yelp developers. Informally, WebKit is already quite accessible -- content can be navigated and manipulated using only the keyboard and can be scaled for easy viewing. Security ======== We're fairly open about fixing and publicising security issues and there's now a process for confidentially reporting issues and disseminating alerts. We're establishing channels with Linux distributions planning to ship WebKit/GTK+ soon. (If your organisation needs to be on this list, you can reply in private to this mail or use the security list.) Applications ============ Epiphany recently switched to WebKit and requires the dependency. I believe other applications in the platform and desktop set have WebKit on the roadmap. Some other (GNOME and ISV) users are listed at A note on project maintenance ============================= While we work closely with the Apple and Trolltech WebKit teams it's worth keeping in mind that the WebKit/GTK+ team is autonomous -- we decide what features we ship and we set our own goals. In making this announcement we'd like to invite the GNOME community to get more involved in that process. From ross@openedhand.com Wed Apr 16 11:25:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12279750185 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:25:43 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 9532 hrs), (distance 11, link: ethernet/modem), [67.19.73.58] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xNnBrvkIqVi3 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:25:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pug.o-hand.com (3a.49.1343.static.theplanet.com [67.19.73.58]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C56750137 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:25:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.64] (home.burtonini.com [91.84.213.104]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pug.o-hand.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76F0E30B36; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request From: Ross Burton To: Alp Toker In-Reply-To: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-v5JRXQYNghgyrsQCVFwy" Organization: Opened Hand Ltd Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:25:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.1 Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:25:43 -0000 --=-v5JRXQYNghgyrsQCVFwy Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2008-04-16 at 08:10 +0100, Alp Toker wrote: > I'm also taking this opportunity to request an external dependency for=20 > GNOME and to poke Ross about including WebKit in the Mobile Platform=20 > (not much happened since it was proposed in June). As much as I'm a WebKit fan, we're (OpenedHand, that is) are trying to replicate Chris Blizzard's performance/size/etc results for the "mobile" Firefox 3 to see what the results are like. The problem is I'm torn over saying "WebKit/GTK+ is in the platform", or wimping out and recommending both WebKit/GTK+ and Firefox 3. Currently I'm leaning towards putting WebKit/GTK+ in the platform, and if people wish to use Gecko, they can. Ross --=20 OpenedHand Ltd. Unit R Homesdale Business Center / 216-218 Homesdale Road / Bromley / BR1 2QZ / UK Tel: +44 (0)20 8819 6559 Expert Open Source For Consumer Devices - http://o-hand.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ --=-v5JRXQYNghgyrsQCVFwy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBIBeItLQnkR9C0M98RAnb/AJ9tQ4ch1/5/TZC1ml5v0bGwKTeQGACg6K8S pYto9FEttYytjKemXEdql6Q= =cW/H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-v5JRXQYNghgyrsQCVFwy-- From kalle.vahlman@gmail.com Thu Apr 17 06:04:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6AAF750175 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:04:38 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 3092 hrs), (distance 13, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.198.240] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3NkO-0M7wuid for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:04:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.240]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CAF7502C7 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:04:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id k29so1320017rvb.3 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.206.13 with SMTP id i13mr503106rvq.211.1208412268798; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.127.4 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <177e83dd0804162304m74e06a6cvb8620db5bab63ee9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:04:28 +0300 From: "Kalle Vahlman" To: "Ross Burton" Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request In-Reply-To: <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: zuh@iki.fi List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:04:38 -0000 2008/4/16, Ross Burton : > On Wed, 2008-04-16 at 08:10 +0100, Alp Toker wrote: > > I'm also taking this opportunity to request an external dependency for > > GNOME and to poke Ross about including WebKit in the Mobile Platform > > (not much happened since it was proposed in June). > > As much as I'm a WebKit fan, we're (OpenedHand, that is) are trying to > replicate Chris Blizzard's performance/size/etc results for the "mobile" > Firefox 3 to see what the results are like. The problem is I'm torn > over saying "WebKit/GTK+ is in the platform", or wimping out and > recommending both WebKit/GTK+ and Firefox 3. Currently I'm leaning > towards putting WebKit/GTK+ in the platform, and if people wish to use > Gecko, they can. One could argue the following: - The native UI building technology for Gecko is XUL - The native UI building technology for WebKit-GTK+ is GTK+ - Having one (just one) web content engine in[1] the platform is a must - What Alp said, WebKit-GTK+ is a totally GNOME/GTK+-committed project[2] while Mozilla tends to have its own[3] direction in development. This is quite fine I think, but it also means that WebKit-GTK+ will tend to have more (possibilities for) integration with the rest of the stack. - Having a default engine should not scare away people caring about which engine they use if it happens to be the other one. - Epiphany made the jump on the desktop side, I wouldn't be surprised if devhelp and yelp would follow the lead (even if there hasn't been decisions on that, haven't noticed any at least). It would be good to be consistent in this front. One positive note is that I don't think performance will have significant differences after the crazy browser optimization race is over (browser developers, please please continue to try to prove me wrong! ;). So taking WebKit-GTK+ as the default web content engine for GNOME Mobile makes sense due to the release cycle, API, technology and design compatibility with GNOME, just like it made sense for Epiphany to do so. Gecko will always be available to those who want it, like in the case of distros that are defaulting to Firefox. [1] or rather, as default to [2] as in, its API is designed for GTK+ usage (not just bolted on) and it is rapidly adopting GNOME-related technologies (like soup) [3] though rather satisfyingly parallel by all means -- Kalle Vahlman, zuh@iki.fi Powered by http://movial.fi Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi From ross@openedhand.com Thu Apr 17 08:28:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2418375029E for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:28:38 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 9742 hrs), (distance 11, link: ethernet/modem), [67.19.73.58] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RK0JZJnmkI7j for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:28:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pug.o-hand.com (3a.49.1343.static.theplanet.com [67.19.73.58]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4A675027A for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:28:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.64] (home.burtonini.com [91.84.213.104]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pug.o-hand.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ABF0E30A74; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 04:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request From: Ross Burton To: zuh@iki.fi In-Reply-To: <177e83dd0804162304m74e06a6cvb8620db5bab63ee9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <177e83dd0804162304m74e06a6cvb8620db5bab63ee9@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-zfJb0cfa0HFyZlypo3cU" Organization: Opened Hand Ltd Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:28:22 +0100 Message-Id: <1208420902.12120.4.camel@blackadder> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.1 Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:28:38 -0000 --=-zfJb0cfa0HFyZlypo3cU Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 09:04 +0300, Kalle Vahlman wrote: > One could argue the following: >=20 > - The native UI building technology for Gecko is XUL > - The native UI building technology for WebKit-GTK+ is GTK+ > - Having one (just one) web content engine in[1] the platform is a must > - What Alp said, WebKit-GTK+ is a totally GNOME/GTK+-committed > project[2] while Mozilla tends to have its own[3] direction in > development. This is quite fine I think, but it also means that > WebKit-GTK+ will tend to have more (possibilities for) integration > with the rest of the stack. > - Having a default engine should not scare away people caring about > which engine they use if it happens to be the other one. > - Epiphany made the jump on the desktop side, I wouldn't be > surprised if devhelp and yelp would follow the lead (even if there > hasn't been decisions on that, haven't noticed any at least). It would > be good to be consistent in this front. >=20 > One positive note is that I don't think performance will have > significant differences after the crazy browser optimization race is > over (browser developers, please please continue to try to prove me > wrong! ;). >=20 > So taking WebKit-GTK+ as the default web content engine for GNOME > Mobile makes sense due to the release cycle, API, technology and > design compatibility with GNOME, just like it made sense for Epiphany > to do so. Gecko will always be available to those who want it, like in > the case of distros that are defaulting to Firefox. Yeah, that's pretty much exactly my thoughts on this. Ross --=20 OpenedHand Ltd. Unit R Homesdale Business Center / 216-218 Homesdale Road / Bromley / BR1 2QZ / UK Tel: +44 (0)20 8819 6559 Expert Open Source For Consumer Devices - http://o-hand.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ --=-zfJb0cfa0HFyZlypo3cU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBIBwomLQnkR9C0M98RAvj+AJ9URAs+jvTowYdARPmlFn/vGwtofgCfYDrC j+ZCbaeXkDzz9g2DSdBIeNU= =jS2z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-zfJb0cfa0HFyZlypo3cU-- From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Apr 17 08:51:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0C2750294 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:51:57 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.425 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.425 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.174, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) (up: 8100 hrs), (distance 19, link: ethernet/modem), [82.228.182.88] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mif5YVIGR7fX for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:51:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38DA750089 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:51:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 323561126ED; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:51:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:51:43 +0200 From: Vincent Untz To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request Message-ID: <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> Mail-Followup-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:51:57 -0000 Le mercredi 16 avril 2008, 12:25 +0100, Ross Burton a crit : > On Wed, 2008-04-16 at 08:10 +0100, Alp Toker wrote: > > I'm also taking this opportunity to request an external dependency for > > GNOME and to poke Ross about including WebKit in the Mobile Platform > > (not much happened since it was proposed in June). > > As much as I'm a WebKit fan, we're (OpenedHand, that is) are trying to > replicate Chris Blizzard's performance/size/etc results for the "mobile" > Firefox 3 to see what the results are like. The problem is I'm torn > over saying "WebKit/GTK+ is in the platform", or wimping out and > recommending both WebKit/GTK+ and Firefox 3. Currently I'm leaning > towards putting WebKit/GTK+ in the platform, and if people wish to use > Gecko, they can. What about waiting the decision for the WebKit as a GNOME external dep and taking a consistent decision with this? :-) My point is that I'd have to have a GNOME Mobile Platform that is going to be totally different from the rest of GNOME... Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas presss. From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Apr 17 08:53:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31608750175 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:53:26 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.425 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.425 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.174, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) (up: 8100 hrs), (distance 19, link: ethernet/modem), [82.228.182.88] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zFuNHloS3CaJ for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:53:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568E07500FC for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:53:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4719B1126ED; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:53:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:53:20 +0200 From: Vincent Untz To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request Message-ID: <20080417085320.GT8810@vuntz.net> Mail-Followup-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:53:26 -0000 Le jeudi 17 avril 2008, 10:51 +0200, Vincent Untz a crit : > Le mercredi 16 avril 2008, 12:25 +0100, Ross Burton a crit : > > On Wed, 2008-04-16 at 08:10 +0100, Alp Toker wrote: > > > I'm also taking this opportunity to request an external dependency for > > > GNOME and to poke Ross about including WebKit in the Mobile Platform > > > (not much happened since it was proposed in June). > > > > As much as I'm a WebKit fan, we're (OpenedHand, that is) are trying to > > replicate Chris Blizzard's performance/size/etc results for the "mobile" > > Firefox 3 to see what the results are like. The problem is I'm torn > > over saying "WebKit/GTK+ is in the platform", or wimping out and > > recommending both WebKit/GTK+ and Firefox 3. Currently I'm leaning > > towards putting WebKit/GTK+ in the platform, and if people wish to use > > Gecko, they can. > > What about waiting the decision for the WebKit as a GNOME external dep > and taking a consistent decision with this? :-) > > My point is that I'd have to have a GNOME Mobile Platform that is going > to be totally different from the rest of GNOME... "I'd hate to have". Doesn't make much sense else ;-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas presss. From ross@openedhand.com Thu Apr 17 09:07:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B91750275; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:07:05 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 9749 hrs), (distance 11, link: ethernet/modem), [67.19.73.58] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6eujQOcFn19b; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:06:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pug.o-hand.com (3a.49.1343.static.theplanet.com [67.19.73.58]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5235575027A; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:06:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.64] (home.burtonini.com [91.84.213.104]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pug.o-hand.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AA1E30A74; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 05:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request From: Ross Burton To: Vincent Untz In-Reply-To: <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-o8Xw2Y/Ss69lLDyS4FY+" Organization: Opened Hand Ltd Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:06:42 +0100 Message-Id: <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.1 Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:07:05 -0000 --=-o8Xw2Y/Ss69lLDyS4FY+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 10:51 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote: > What about waiting the decision for the WebKit as a GNOME external dep > and taking a consistent decision with this? :-) >=20 > My point is that I'd have to have a GNOME Mobile Platform that is going > to be totally different from the rest of GNOME... When will this decision be made for GNOME? With Ephy switching to WebKit at full-speed (when I heard they were switching I thought they meant changing the default backend, not removing gecko entirely) I think the direction the platform is heading is quite predictable, unless there are terrible problems in the near future. But yes, there is a lot of flux at the moment here, and as I said I'd like to see "mobile" firefox on a handheld before making any further choices. I'm leaning towards WebKit but I won't make a firm decision just yet. Ross --=20 OpenedHand Ltd. Unit R Homesdale Business Center / 216-218 Homesdale Road / Bromley / BR1 2QZ / UK Tel: +44 (0)20 8819 6559 Expert Open Source For Consumer Devices - http://o-hand.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ --=-o8Xw2Y/Ss69lLDyS4FY+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBIBxMiLQnkR9C0M98RAhmlAKDiVldEs11tau9IlDR+3UlmvrTsbACgnMDG e81d6XFSyf2WL28pVzygz1w= =0d4l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-o8Xw2Y/Ss69lLDyS4FY+-- From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Apr 17 09:11:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF29750269 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:11:43 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.425 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.425 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.174, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) (up: 8101 hrs), (distance 19, link: ethernet/modem), [82.228.182.88] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLqtfq9B3xkT for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:11:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45B17500F4 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:11:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AB4EF1126ED; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:11:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:11:37 +0200 From: Vincent Untz To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request Message-ID: <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> Mail-Followup-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:11:43 -0000 Le jeudi 17 avril 2008, 10:06 +0100, Ross Burton a crit : > On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 10:51 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote: > > What about waiting the decision for the WebKit as a GNOME external dep > > and taking a consistent decision with this? :-) > > > > My point is that I'd have to have a GNOME Mobile Platform that is going > > to be totally different from the rest of GNOME... > > When will this decision be made for GNOME? With Ephy switching to > WebKit at full-speed (when I heard they were switching I thought they > meant changing the default backend, not removing gecko entirely) I think > the direction the platform is heading is quite predictable, unless there > are terrible problems in the near future. Argh, I shouldn't have spoken :-) I don't know the reply for "when", to be honest. I think it's more or less blocked by the status of a11y in WebKit at the moment. Will move this topic at the top of my TODO list. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas presss. From rob.taylor@codethink.co.uk Thu Apr 17 09:42:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0815E750336 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:42:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (up: 3444 hrs), (distance 15, link: ethernet/modem), [208.78.103.131] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GsZ2nGnCvE7u for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:42:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.codethink.co.uk (floopily.codethink.co.uk [208.78.103.131]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9937502D1 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:42:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.105] (unknown [78.32.152.225]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.codethink.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49742C057D for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:42:27 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <48071B81.7010308@codethink.co.uk> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:42:25 +0200 From: Rob Taylor User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> In-Reply-To: <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:42:56 -0000 Vincent Untz wrote: > Le jeudi 17 avril 2008, 10:06 +0100, Ross Burton a crit : >> On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 10:51 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote: >>> What about waiting the decision for the WebKit as a GNOME external dep >>> and taking a consistent decision with this? :-) >>> >>> My point is that I'd have to have a GNOME Mobile Platform that is going >>> to be totally different from the rest of GNOME... >> When will this decision be made for GNOME? With Ephy switching to >> WebKit at full-speed (when I heard they were switching I thought they >> meant changing the default backend, not removing gecko entirely) I think >> the direction the platform is heading is quite predictable, unless there >> are terrible problems in the near future. > > Argh, I shouldn't have spoken :-) I don't know the reply for "when", to > be honest. I think it's more or less blocked by the status of a11y in > WebKit at the moment. Will move this topic at the top of my TODO list. > That also a good point to keep in mind for GNOME Mobile. I think we should at least note for any GUI technologies whether they support accessibility and UI testing. Thanks, Rob From jdub@bethesignal.org Thu Apr 17 09:52:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5416B750295 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:52:30 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (up: 794 hrs), (distance 11, link: ethernet/modem), [70.85.31.216] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EvwSe3TAQhJD for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:52:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D941C7500C3 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:52:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (home.waugh.id.au [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 595313C20A for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:52:22 +1000 (EST) Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9F69A57D87; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:52:21 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:52:21 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request Message-ID: <20080417095221.GF9333@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> <48071B81.7010308@codethink.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48071B81.7010308@codethink.co.uk> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.24-12-generic i686 Jabber-ID: jdub@gnome.org X-Uptime: 19:50:48 up 14 days, 56 min, 5 users, load average: 0.10, 0.07, 0.07 Reply-By: Sun Apr 20 19:50:48 EST 2008 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:52:30 -0000 > That also a good point to keep in mind for GNOME Mobile. I think we should > at least note for any GUI technologies whether they support accessibility > and UI testing. Yes, and as much as a11y has been a differentiating feature for our desktop platform, I'm sure it can be used to similar great effect for mobile. We do need to figure out how that is going to work, of course... :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2008: Istanbul, Turkey http://www.guadec.org/ "Our 20th anniversary issue, we suspect, will be about the year of the Linux desktop." - Jon Corbet, LWN From nearyd@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 13:22:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1507504B6 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:22:33 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.142 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.142 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.303, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GT=0.077, TW_JH=0.077] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 9561 hrs), (distance 16, link: (Google 2)), [72.14.220.158] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01vfFDDszhCN for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:22:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98297500B9 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:21:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so2837585fga.33 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.73.3 with SMTP id v3mr1200366fga.68.1209043266482; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.64? ( [88.163.116.163]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e11sm357060fga.5.2008.04.24.06.21.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4810893C.5040206@free.fr> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:21:00 +0200 From: Dave Neary Organization: Neary Consulting User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Summary of GNOME Mobile summit in Austin X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: Dave Neary X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: dneary@free.fr List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:22:33 -0000 Hi all, Here's a report of the GNOME Mobile summit we held in Austin a couple of weeks ago - sorry for the delay in sending it on. I've slightly sanitised some stuff, because a couple of details were either not cleared by the concerned parties for public release (and they weren't there to defend themselves), or because the concerned party asked to keep it quiet for a while. Do people think it would be useful to have a post-summit release saying we had a successful summit and outlining some of the actions coming out of the meeting? I feel like it would be non-news, and it's probably best to wait until (say) the first beta of the GNOME Mobile release set in a few weeks to announce something concrete. Cheers, Dave. GNOME Mobile summit report ========================== Many thanks to Paul Cooper and Rob Taylor for getting me started on this and sending me their notes of the sessions, it was just what I needed to get over my procrastination. First an overall summary: The day split into four distinct parts, and many interesting conversations happened between these parts over coffee, cake and cigarettes. There was also cake in the meeting room on a couple of occasions. The meeting did suffer a little from having several competing sessions running at the same time. Throughout Thursday, there were parallel sessions for Linux mobile/embedded, power management and desktop architects going on. Nevertheless, we managed to have over 20 people most of the day, and about 35 people made an appearance during the day. Agenda outline -------------- - Overall strategy of the project - Communication - Members, partners, consumers - Branding, positioning (who is our audience? What is our value to them?) - Code to upstream - general outcome: Needs to be done on a case by case basis - there isn't necessarily a resource issue, other than time. In particular: DBus ports of EDS, GConf could be upstreamed soon. There are some patches in Hiker, and OH patches to the file chooser, which could be upstreamed too. - Defining the release set for the platform and fixing mid-term goals for the project - Listing technology gaps in the platform - identifying 3 or 4 which are obtainable within the community - this could be the basis of a roadmap for the platform over coming months Strategy ======== * Who is our audience? Application developers, and hardware/mobile platform vendors Application developers: you can write an application against GNOME Mobile and have it be useful (implies going high enough up the stack for this to be true). Mobile platform & hardware vendors: There is a growing meme (which is profiting Android) that mobile Linux is fragmented. Branding GNOME Mobile as a useful LCD among platforms like Maemo, Hiker, Moblin, LiMo, GPE, ALP, Poky/Sato, Ubuntu Mobile ... allows each of these platforms to react to the fragmentation story by pointing to shared technology. (Question: how much of the GNOME Mobile platform should be used before a platform can be called GNOME Mobile? Is GNOME Mobile a useful platform to target?) * Certification program: Ideas to come out: "participating in the GNOME Mobile workgroup" as being sufficient for a badge. Requiring at least GTK+. Identifying some reasonable subset of technologies that "everyone" uses. Badging: Approach platforms considered GNOME Mobile and sell the idea of the GNOME Mobile foot on device packaging to them. Jeff has done some work on this already (we should get the GNOME Mobile artwork sent to the mobile list). "Proper" certification: It would be possible to have a GNOME Mobile LSB test-suite which would be used to test both platform compliance and application compliance with the GNOME Mobile platform. It's a long term goal, but one to bear in mind. * Project goal/mantra/vision: "The standard foundation for open-source based mobile devices" (suggestion from Lefty) * Project targets: Aiming for ISVs: We need a downloadable demo to make the project real, otherwise it doesn't exist. We need to have a cost & time to market story (building on GNOME Mobile can reduce your time to market for a device, and reduce your R&D costs - have some examples to hand - and if we can't tell this story, what is our selling point?). GNOME Mobile is 1. A platform 2. A community Need to collect stories - reference platforms & industry consortia using the platform, devices based on GNOME Mobile, GNOME Mobile applications, "downloadable Bling!") * GNOME Mobile HIG? Dan Kohn suggests that it would be useful for ISVs to have interface guidelines (à la iPhone) for applications. Somme dissention: the mix of platforms, input methods & form factors would make it difficult to achieve a lowest common denominator, and N different HIGs would be a maintenance nightmare. That said, there was some support for the idea of updating the current HIG to include some basic mobile concerns, have a general "mobile application" section, with form-factor/usecase specific appendices (eg. nettop/laptop, mid, smartphone, dumbphone) (I don't really understand what all of these are, I just took notes). * Tangents: In any discussion like this, you get tangents. Here's a sample: - Is Maemo dropping GNOME for QT? There's a perception of a change of direction - Clutter is cool. Look, e flips the video! - Android is the Devil! The Devil, I say! * Website: The website is now out of date. It needs updates, with: - A list of participants in GNOME Mobile - A collection of sample platforms, apps We should gather a list of possible participants, projects, consumers of the platform. Upstreaming code ================ This discussion ended up being short. * EDS DBus: Ross plans on doing it, just doesn't have the time. Q: Is it a resource issue? Probably not - no-one but Ross is really equipped to make it happen. * OH File chooser patches: submission planned * Hiker patches: About 10K lines of patches to GNOME components in the Hiker platform, their technical guy has been working on pushing those upstream. * Maemo: Tommi has maintained a good page of all the outstanding patches, all of the useful stuff has been submitted upstream. No-one else patches GTK+ or the rest of the platform ;) Release set, mid-term goals =========================== Need a downloadable VM-based solution people can code to. Ross can get a Poky image up & going, and has just checked in a jhbuild module set. The Poky VM can be one of many - other platforms are welcome to provide sample VMs. Release set: The original release set at http://www.gnome.org/mobile/ has GnomeVFS, should be replaced with gvfs. Perhaps X could be a soft requirement, some interest in DirectFB. SQLite was also suggested for the platform. Bits that goe marked as the corest of core components: BlueZ, GStreamer, Matchbox, Gconf, GTK+, DBus, glib, and either X or DirectFB. The list of candidate technologies we came up with was: Clutter OHM HAL PulseAudio GUPnP Tinymail GeoClue Webkit Mozilla Java ME (parts) Hiker (parts) Hildon (parts) General agreement that HAL was good for the platform. Other candidates that got good support were PulseAudio, GUPnP, TinyMail, GeoClue. Probably for consideration in 2.26? Ross's plan is to be conservative for the first release, and just make sure it happens with the core components on the gnome-mobile site. In terms of browsers, there was general concensus that we're too low on the stack to force/choose a browser component, WebKit and Mozilla Fennec will both be options. Phoneme also came up. Both Hiker and Hildon may have separable components useful for the platform - candidates should be identified and evaluated on a case by case basis. Technology gaps =============== We identified a bunch of technology gaps - mostly brainstorming - and identified some of them that are at least partially addressed by current candidate technologies. We marked a few for particular short-term attention. * Telephony framework & plug-ins * Presence/location * Synchronization (sp) * T9/predictive text input * Handwriting recognition. * Voice commands/recognition/text to speech * Power management * Policy management * Security * App management * Connection management * Input framework * Notification/alarm/alert * Camera/video * SMS/MMS/EMS * DLNA Some of these are partially addressed by existing libraries: G(PE)2, Telephathy: Telephony framework Geoclue, Gypsy: Presence/location OHM: Power & policy mgmt Hiker, NM, Moblin: Security, app mgmt, connection mgmlt, notifications Some of them (T9) are patent minefields. In the end, the decisions were to attack those with partial solutions, and also to push one major feature need: synchronisation and one other major feature: DLNA. Thet's as I noted it - if there are any additions, omissions, corrections, please feel free. Courtesy of Rob Taylor, here's a list of useful links related to things discussed: [1] http://www.directfb.org [2] http://www.sqlite.org/ [3] http://clutter-project.org/ [4] http://hal.freedesktop.org [5] http://ohm.freedesktop.org [6] http://pulseaudio.org/ [7] http://www.gupnp.org/ [8] http://www.tinymail.org/ [9] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/GeoClue [10] http://live.gnome.org/WebKitGtk [11] http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/FennecRequirements [12] https://phoneme.dev.java.net/ [13] http://live.gnome.org/Hildon [14] http://www.hikerproject.org/ [15] http://telepathy.freedesktop.org [16] http://folks.o-hand.com/iain/gypsy/ [17] http://www.conduit-project.org/ [18] http://www.openismus.com/misc/multipress-gtk-input-method/source/ [19] http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/pocketsphinx/ [20] www.packagekit.org -- Dave Neary dneary@free.fr Tel: +33 9 51 13 46 45 Cell: +33 6 77 01 92 13 From foss.mailinglists@gmail.com Fri Apr 25 05:24:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F82C750131 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:24:01 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 5005 hrs), (distance 14, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.198.242] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zq5-STRlhMMB for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:23:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.242]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B39750140 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:23:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id k29so1867481rvb.3 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.174.11 with SMTP id w11mr1583096rve.17.1209101031093; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ( [202.80.58.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c20sm1519607rvf.3.2008.04.24.22.23.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <48116ACE.2070201@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:53:26 +0530 From: Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080226) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> In-Reply-To: <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:24:04 -0000 Vincent Untz wrote: > Argh, I shouldn't have spoken :-) I don't know the reply for "when", to > be honest. I think it's more or less blocked by the status of a11y in > WebKit at the moment. Will move this topic at the top of my TODO list. is it possible to have a quick run-down on how a11y is blocking the WebKit movement ? i am asking this because the "when" part is interesting for me as well -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work From vuntz@gnome.org Tue Apr 29 08:50:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3E17500A5 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:50:51 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.426 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.426 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.173, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) (up: 8820 hrs), (distance 19, link: ethernet/modem), [82.228.182.88] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MyNwJ3-xZCe4 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:50:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D39875011F for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:50:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1FAD11126F0; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:50:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:50:44 +0200 From: Vincent Untz To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request Message-ID: <20080429085044.GK15432@vuntz.net> Mail-Followup-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> <48116ACE.2070201@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <48116ACE.2070201@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:50:51 -0000 Le vendredi 25 avril 2008, 10:53 +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay a crit : > Vincent Untz wrote: > > > Argh, I shouldn't have spoken :-) I don't know the reply for "when", to > > be honest. I think it's more or less blocked by the status of a11y in > > WebKit at the moment. Will move this topic at the top of my TODO list. > > is it possible to have a quick run-down on how a11y is blocking the > WebKit movement ? i am asking this because the "when" part is > interesting for me as well Not quite sure if the question is for GNOME people or for WebKit people :-) You might want to read the part of this thread that was only on d-d-l, though: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2008-April/msg00176.html Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas presss. From foss.mailinglists@gmail.com Tue Apr 29 09:01:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B767501EA for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:01:01 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 6002 hrs), (distance 13, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.198.244] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34FlgaCW0WKZ for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:00:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.244]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB967501AC for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:00:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id k29so2894636rvb.3 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.136.19 with SMTP id o19mr3740225rvn.250.1209459652965; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp1-29.pnq.redhat.com ( [202.80.58.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b39sm7906216rvf.8.2008.04.29.02.00.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4816E3BF.40907@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:30:47 +0530 From: Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080418) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <1208345133.11470.24.camel@blackadder> <20080417085143.GS8810@vuntz.net> <1208423202.12120.13.camel@blackadder> <20080417091137.GV8810@vuntz.net> <48116ACE.2070201@gmail.com> <20080429085044.GK15432@vuntz.net> In-Reply-To: <20080429085044.GK15432@vuntz.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:01:01 -0000 Vincent Untz wrote: > Not quite sure if the question is for GNOME people or for WebKit people > :-) You might want to read the part of this thread that was only on > d-d-l, though: > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2008-April/msg00176.html Oh yeah - this provides pointers. Thank you (now to figure out as to how i missed the discussion on that mailing list) -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work From david.bolter@gmail.com Wed Apr 16 14:06:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9B5750274 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:06:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.522 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GT=0.077] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 11028 hrs), (distance 16, link: (Google 2)), [66.249.92.174] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2lvuoUXKNHyU for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:05:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0023750175 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:05:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id c2so885922ugf.30 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.226.2 with SMTP id y2mr105030ybg.222.1208354753923; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from david-bolters-computer.local ( [142.150.154.101]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e19sm7307243qba.13.2008.04.16.07.05.41 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <480607BB.50906@gnome.org> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:05:47 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alp Toker Subject: Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> In-Reply-To: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: david bolter X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:48:10 +0000 Cc: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org, "desktop-devel-list@gnome.org" X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:06:04 -0000 Hi Alp, Thanks very much for this detailed information. I have a couple of questions inline regarding accessibility: Alp Toker wrote: > You may already have heard that the WebKit/GTK+ developers have been > exploring options for a release cycle. Here I'm going to outline our > plans in a little more detail. > > WebKit/GTK+ is a community sub-project maintained mostly by GNOME and > GTK+ developers. It's implemented directly on top of GTK+, GLib and > GNOME libraries and provides lightweight web viewing and editing > features as well as being the basis for complete web browser > applications. It supports the latest web standards and offers good > performance and memory usage characteristics on the desktop and in > mobile devices. > > As a result of the productive collaboration with the GNOME project and > after consultation with the GNOME board and release team, we've decided > to implement a stable 6-month release cycle that matches the GNOME > schedule, effective immediately, targeting the upcoming 2.24 release. > > I'm also taking this opportunity to request an external dependency for > GNOME and to poke Ross about including WebKit in the Mobile Platform > (not much happened since it was proposed in June). > > Module versioning > ================= > > The package name is webkit-1.0. Shared objects and headers are named and > versioned according to GTK+ platform and module guidelines. > > API/ABI stability > ================= > > The API is currently "slushy" so we'll make a few tweaks to the loader > API (as requested by the Epiphany developers) and add more features > before freezing for 2.24. In the past we've taken care to fix > applications directly in GNOME SVN following API changes made in the > development cycle. > > Once stabilised, we'll follow a policy of additions only, with old > symbols marked deprecated in gtk-doc. > > Documentation > ============= > > There's a coding guideline requiring all functions, properties and > signals to be documented with gtk-doc so the documentation situation is > pretty good. > > Furthermore, public API changes are expected to be accompanied by a > rationale and "cooling off" period allowing the community to study them > before they're reviewed and go in so there's usually a trail describing > why things are the way they are. > > GDK targets > =========== > > WebKit works with all platforms and windowing targets supported by GDK > and provides the same stable GObject API everywhere. (Windows support is > still in development but not far off.) > > Language bindings > ================= > > WebKit bindings are available for Python, C#/CLR, Vala and Perl. > > Some of the bindings cover not just the GObject API but also provide > integration with the browser engine. WebKit is designed to be extensible > using any supported language via DOM access and bi-directional runtime > integration -- "extension" or add-in systems aren't limited to JavaScript. > > Mobile > ====== > > WebKit/GTK+ is the default browser engine in the OpenMoko and Poky > mobile Linux distributions. There's ongoing work to develop WebKit/GTK+ > for the Maemo platform and a couple of other upcoming mobile GTK+ > deployments yet to be announced. Ports exist to over a dozen devices > including phones, e-paper readers and set top boxes. > > Accessibility > ============= > > In the last few weeks we've started to look at formal accessibility > support for document navigation and manipulation. The first WebCore > patches have landed and we intend to provide AT-SPI accessibility for > the 2.24 release. This is partly in response to requests from the > community and Yelp developers. > > Informally, WebKit is already quite accessible -- content can be > navigated and manipulated using only the keyboard and can be scaled for > easy viewing. > > Is there any accessibility support work happening for DHTML web applications? Is Apple working on that support in-house or is there open source collaboration? Please note: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7138 "Implement tabindex for all elements, enabling accessible web apps" https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12132 "Implement ARIA to enable dynamic web appliations" Very important to get these issues resolved for the modern web :) cheers, David > Security > ======== > > We're fairly open about fixing and publicising security issues and > there's now a process for confidentially reporting issues and > disseminating alerts. We're establishing channels with Linux > distributions planning to ship WebKit/GTK+ soon. (If your organisation > needs to be on this list, you can reply in private to this mail or use > the security list.) > > Applications > ============ > > Epiphany recently switched to WebKit and requires the dependency. I > believe other applications in the platform and desktop set have WebKit > on the roadmap. Some other (GNOME and ISV) users are listed at > > > A note on project maintenance > ============================= > > While we work closely with the Apple and Trolltech WebKit teams it's > worth keeping in mind that the WebKit/GTK+ team is autonomous -- we > decide what features we ship and we set our own goals. In making this > announcement we'd like to invite the GNOME community to get more > involved in that process. > > _______________________________________________ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > From mjs@apple.com Wed Apr 30 09:48:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0DC750084; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:48:26 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, L_P0F_Unix=-1] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: FreeBSD 6.x (2) (up: 4655 hrs), (distance 10, link: GPRS, T1, FreeS/WAN), [17.254.13.22] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pJhKE-Cc++yN; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:48:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail-out3.apple.com (mail-out3.apple.com [17.254.13.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD99F750080; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:48:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A208C2A40D39; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay11.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 82A592802F; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:48:17 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807130-a8b8ebb000000ead-6e-48184060494b Received: from [17.151.108.126] (unknown [17.151.108.126]) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 048482803F; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: Maciej Stachowiak To: Willie Walker , David Bolter In-Reply-To: <9d35617578a1e35bebdf792e28a5e539@sun.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--686537255 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Subject: Update on WebKit accessibility support (Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:48:16 -0700 References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <20080417115010.GJ8810@vuntz.net> <9d35617578a1e35bebdf792e28a5e539@sun.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:48:10 +0000 Cc: Vincent Untz , mobile-devel-list@gnome.org, desktop-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:48:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1--686537255 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to give a quick update on the state of WebKit accessibility support, and clarify a few things. 1) Our accessibility code refactoring is complete; the Mac-specific code is now cleanly separated from a Mac-specific back end. 2) We have added a second back end for Windows MSAA. This validates the cross-platform accessibility architecture and the relative ease of adding a back end. (But it will still be up to GNOME/Gtk-focused hackers or other ports targeting Linux to add a back end for AT-SPI). 3) We have recently added support for global tabIndex, a prerequisite for ARIA: . We've also landed an initial patch for a small bit of partial ARIA support: . We realize there is a long way to go on this but I thought people here may want to know that things are underway. To address some specific questions: On Apr 17, 2008, at 5:29 AM, Willie Walker wrote: > For a first pass, if WebKit were to provide AT-SPI equivalent to Gecko > 1.9 a11y sans ARIA support, I think it would be OK. But, I would like > to see plans and commitment to delivering ARIA at some point soon > thereafter. I can't really make firm commitments on behalf of Apple or the WebKit project as a whole, but you can probably guess that we're not going to stop working on it. > Another thing of great importance is to make sure WebKit > provided compelling keyboard support for interacting with the content. > This includes navigating the 'read only' content using normal means > (e.g., arrowing, page up/down, etc.) as well as text selection and > cut/copy/paste support. Scrolling read-only content and focus navigation are built-in, including the newly minted support for tabIndex. On Apr 16, 2008, at 7:05 AM, David Bolter wrote: > > Is there any accessibility support work happening for DHTML web > applications? Is Apple working on that support in-house or is there > open > source collaboration? > > Please note: > https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7138 "Implement tabindex for > all > elements, enabling accessible web apps" > https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12132 "Implement ARIA to > enable > dynamic web appliations" > > Very important to get these issues resolved for the modern web :) You will notice the first of these is RESOLVED/FIXED. Note that WebKit's built-in accessibility recognizes both controls and script- installed click event handlers to detect activatable elements and expose these actions to AT, so less complex DHTML will often work ok without any ARIA markup. On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: > > > Yet. There are some JavaScript things I'd like to do. > Things like annotation popups and collapsible sections. > Nothing on the order of a web app like GMail, but still > things that need to be accessible. You may find some of these things are accessible without the need for ARIA, since appropriately marked up clickable controls are exposed to AT in any case. I would advise testing. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Maciej --Apple-Mail-1--686537255 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'd like to = give a quick update on the state of WebKit accessibility support, and = clarify a few things.

1) Our accessibility code = refactoring is complete; the Mac-specific code is now cleanly separated = from a Mac-specific back end.

2) We have added = a second back end for Windows MSAA. This validates the cross-platform = accessibility architecture and the relative ease of adding a back end. = (But it will still be up to GNOME/Gtk-focused hackers or other ports = targeting Linux to add a back end for = AT-SPI).

3) We have recently added support for = global tabIndex, a prerequisite for ARIA: <http://trac.webkit.org/cha= ngeset/32664>. We've also landed an initial patch for a small bit of = partial ARIA support: <http://trac.webkit.org/cha= ngeset/32694>. We realize there is a long way to go on this but I = thought people here may want to know that things are = underway.

To address some specific = questions:

On Apr 17, 2008, at 5:29 AM, = Willie Walker wrote:
For a first = pass, if WebKit were to provide AT-SPI equivalent to Gecko
1.9 a11y = sans ARIA support, I think it would be OK.  But, I would like =
to see plans and commitment to delivering ARIA at some point soon =
thereafter.

I can't really make firm = commitments on behalf of Apple or the WebKit project as a whole, but you = can probably guess that we're not going to stop working on = it.

Another thing of great importance = is to make sure WebKit
provided compelling keyboard support for = interacting with the content.  
This includes navigating the = 'read only' content using normal means
(e.g., arrowing, page = up/down, etc.) as well as text selection and
cut/copy/paste = support.

Scrolling read-only content and = focus navigation are built-in, including the newly minted support for = tabIndex.

On Apr 16, 2008, at 7:05 = AM, David Bolter wrote:
Is there any = accessibility support work happening for DHTML = web 
applications? Is Apple working on that support in-house or = is there open 
source collaboration?

Please note:
https://bugs.webki= t.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D7138 "Implement tabindex for = all 
elements, enabling accessible web apps"
https://bugs.webk= it.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D12132 "Implement ARIA to = enable 
dynamic web appliations"

Very important to get = these issues resolved for the modern web :)

You = will notice the first of these is RESOLVED/FIXED. Note that WebKit's = built-in accessibility recognizes both controls and script-installed = click event handlers to detect activatable elements and expose these = actions to AT, so less complex DHTML will often work ok without any ARIA = markup.


On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:36 = AM, Shaun McCance wrote:

Yet.  There = are some JavaScript things I'd like to do.
Things like annotation = popups and collapsible sections.
Nothing on the order of a web app = like GMail, but still
things that need to be = accessible.

You may find some = of these things are accessible without the need for ARIA, since = appropriately marked up clickable controls are exposed to  AT in = any case. I would advise = testing.


Hope this = helps.

Best = Regards,
Maciej



= --Apple-Mail-1--686537255-- From david.bolter@gmail.com Wed Apr 30 14:41:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0CB67500CF for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:41:08 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.605 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 2727 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.166.176] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m8Wz7Hj-MDh9 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:41:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.176]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B227500D3 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:41:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id w49so567008pyg.36 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.252.13 with SMTP id e13mr1773658qbs.51.1209566458961; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from david-bolters-computer.local ( [142.150.154.101]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q16sm11677767qbq.0.2008.04.30.07.40.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4818850B.4040301@utoronto.ca> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:41:15 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maciej Stachowiak Subject: Re: Update on WebKit accessibility support (Re: WebKit release cycle and dependency request) References: <4805A666.1050202@webkit.org> <20080417115010.GJ8810@vuntz.net> <9d35617578a1e35bebdf792e28a5e539@sun.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: david bolter X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 01 May 2008 01:13:31 +0000 Cc: Willie Walker , Vincent Untz , mobile-devel-list@gnome.org, desktop-devel-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: mobile-devel-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME Mobile Platform development and discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:41:08 -0000 Maciej, This is great news indeed! I'm particularly pleased that the tabindex and ARIA work is happening. I'm not sure if anyone has stepped up to the plate for the ATK back end. Now, who wants to take the atk back-end torch and run with it? (I'd love to, but I'm completely swamped) cheers, David Maciej Stachowiak wrote: > > I'd like to give a quick update on the state of WebKit accessibility > support, and clarify a few things. > > 1) Our accessibility code refactoring is complete; the Mac-specific > code is now cleanly separated from a Mac-specific back end. > > 2) We have added a second back end for Windows MSAA. This validates > the cross-platform accessibility architecture and the relative ease of > adding a back end. (But it will still be up to GNOME/Gtk-focused > hackers or other ports targeting Linux to add a back end for AT-SPI). > > 3) We have recently added support for global tabIndex, a prerequisite > for ARIA: . We've also landed > an initial patch for a small bit of partial ARIA > support: . We realize there is > a long way to go on this but I thought people here may want to know > that things are underway. > > To address some specific questions: > > On Apr 17, 2008, at 5:29 AM, Willie Walker wrote: >> For a first pass, if WebKit were to provide AT-SPI equivalent to Gecko >> 1.9 a11y sans ARIA support, I think it would be OK. But, I would like >> to see plans and commitment to delivering ARIA at some point soon >> thereafter. > > I can't really make firm commitments on behalf of Apple or the WebKit > project as a whole, but you can probably guess that we're not going to > stop working on it. > >> Another thing of great importance is to make sure WebKit >> provided compelling keyboard support for interacting with the content. >> This includes navigating the 'read only' content using normal means >> (e.g., arrowing, page up/down, etc.) as well as text selection and >> cut/copy/paste support. > > Scrolling read-only content and focus navigation are built-in, > including the newly minted support for tabIndex. > > > On Apr 16, 2008, at 7:05 AM, David Bolter wrote: >> Is there any accessibility support work happening for DHTML web >> applications? Is Apple working on that support in-house or is there open >> source collaboration? >> >> Please note: >> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7138 "Implement tabindex for all >> elements, enabling accessible web apps" >> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12132 "Implement ARIA to enable >> dynamic web appliations" >> >> Very important to get these issues resolved for the modern web :) > > You will notice the first of these is RESOLVED/FIXED. Note that > WebKit's built-in accessibility recognizes both controls and > script-installed click event handlers to detect activatable elements > and expose these actions to AT, so less complex DHTML will often work > ok without any ARIA markup. > > > On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: >> >> Yet. There are some JavaScript things I'd like to do. >> Things like annotation popups and collapsible sections. >> Nothing on the order of a web app like GMail, but still >> things that need to be accessible. > > You may find some of these things are accessible without the need for > ARIA, since appropriately marked up clickable controls are exposed to > AT in any case. I would advise testing. > > > Hope this helps. > > Best Regards, > Maciej > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list