Re: [Usability] The New File Selector

[Uri David Akavia <uridavid netvision net il>]

I apologize for taking so long to reply - I had a lot of things to do
(including downloading GNOME2.6 so my responses won't be in the air).

On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 07:40, Ryan McDougall wrote:
> Thanks for replying Uri, your mail highlights a lot of common
> misconceptions about usability. Often people learn how to become
> proficient with a broken UI, and when someone tries to change the UI and
> improve it, many users are upset that things don't work the same. They
> then conclude that because their productivity has gone down, the new UI
> must be broken. However, once the users "retrain" themselves to how the
> new UI is supposed to work, instead of fighting it, they find that they
> are indeed better off than before. You would be surprised the tortuous
> interface designs people have become accustomed to, and indeed relish!
> 
While this sentence is true generally, I'm not sure it applies to the
File Selector. Even if it does, losing functionality and productivity
are problems that need to be adressed, even if the new model is "better"
than the old one. If I, personnally, can't use it with the same
effectiveness I used the old one, than that is a problem (at least for
me).

> Please try out the spatial mode when 2.6 comes out, and try to think in
> tune with the UI, and if that doesn't work out come back with your more
> informed criticisms.
> 
I have tried it.
I still don't see how the new spatial model replaces the need for me to
find files via the file selector, which was easy in the previous
version.
I also have several problems with the new spatial model - I can't add a
toolbar or location bar, without switching to non-spatial mode. This
seems to defeat the purpose of the new model - I'll never get used to it
if I stay with the browser model. I think that the Location bar should
be optional, in Nautilus, as well as the file selector.

> There are still plenty of bugs in the file selector, but the completion
> "../somefile" appears to work. Even if it doesn't work now, the fact
> that it partially works means it will be supported in the release
> version. 
> 
Good, but ../somefile definitely does not work (../directory does work).
I have not been able to select a file via the location bar. If it is
possible, please instruct me how to do so.

> The file chooser isn't for file browsing, thats what the file manager is
> for. If you can't find the file your looking for without browsing for
> it, then the desktop has bigger problems than Ctrl-l. You'll note that
> with spatial nautilus and new file system indexing apps like medusa or
> storage, that "browsing" is an activity that will hopefully disappear
> all together.
> 
> Please let me know what files that you access that are buried deep
> enough that they are hard to find.
> 
I keep a lot of files (articles downloaded) on my computer. These
articles are kept in different directories, depending on their subject
(or the subject I was researching when I downloaded them).
If I'm looking at a certain article in full-screen mode, I am not
enthusiastic about going to miniminze the file (or switch desktops),
open the browser, descend 3-6 levels to find the next file I am
searching for, close all the windows I opened and open the relevant
file.
Under the previous file selector, I would simply hit Ctrl-O,
../../New1<tab>/New2<tab>/file<tab> Enter and open the new file.

> What kind of files are you frequently opening? Any frequently accessed
> files should be placed in the bookmark menu, and thus would not require
> Ctrl-l at all. I'm curious as to how your using the file chooser.
> 

As I stated, I use it to tranverse the filesystem. Having a bookmark for
each article I access would overflow in a rather small amount of time. 

> File Chooser			Nautilus
> ------------			--------
> Clicking File Chooser button	Clicking Nautilus
> Choosing a file	among a list	Choosing a file among a list
> Opening the file		Opening the file
> 
No it isn't.
File Chooser
-----------
Clicking the File Chooser button (Or hitting Ctrl-O)
Clicking up directory (once or twice, if at all necessary, I'm likely to
open  a file in the same directory)
Choosing a file among a list
Opening the file

Nautilus
--------
Starting from the root file system, moving to the new location (thus
repeating all the movements necessary to arrive to the present locaion,
or a common ancestor)
Choosing the file
Opening it

The File Chooser is faster, much faster when tab-completion is enabled
by default, including the file name.


Personally, I didn't use Nautilus that much for opening files that
weren't easily reachable from my desktop (a lot of files sit in a dos
partition, common to Windows and Linux on my computer). When I had to
reach a file far away from the desktop (let's say I wanted to open
/usr/src/Some_package/doc/README.txt) I would be more likely to use a
terminal or a file selector (from an open application) rather than use
Nautilus. Two things seem to change that in GNOME 2.6 - One, the new
file selector is as easy as Nautilus (not very, for me, or so it seems)
Two, the new computer icon makes it easier to reach files farther away.

> This is a bug with mime-types, and nautilus handling there of, and not a
> reason to design a bad chooser.
> 
This is still a bug with current GNOME2.6. Why should it be ignored when
designing a good chooser?

> > Third - assuming I already have an application open, why on earth should
> > I have to open another one (Browser) in order to reach another file?
> 
> What one would be trying to do by eliminating the file chooser all
> together is reduce the complexity or cruft of the UI by removing a
> duplicated feature. There is no reason for the existence of a file
> chooser other than "thats the way its always been". While using nautilus

The reasons "that's the way it has always been", "this is the way it
happens in other systesms so people using more than just GNOME2.6 can
transfer skills" are valid reasons in my book.

> to open all files appears to you to just add one more window to the
> clutter (which shouldn't be a problem if the window manager is doing its
> job properly), if you were to change your behaviour beyond what you have
> learnt to do over years coping with with a bad UI, you might find that
> the new design, with your new behaviour, is simpler.
> 

I've explained my problems with the new UI. I've also tried spatial
Nautilus. I still maintain that this is far more clutter than the old
UI.

> What is a non-spatial file chooser? I doubt very much anyone is
> interested in maintaining two different kinds of file choosers.
> 

I believe that our differences are more philosophical than practical.
A non-spatial file chooser? One that has the location bar enabled by
default (after switching an option), and allows you to use
tab-completion to select files. (It can be updated when you press enter,
this doesn't matter much)
Let's see what we seem to agree
Location should parse ../ and regex corretly.
The location bar should have an option for always on.

What we don't seem to agree on - the location bar should allow you to
select the file as well.

Adding all these three functions will provide me (and others) with a
non-spatial file browser. Is there any reason not to enable this, other
than "It doesn't mesh with the new vision for GNOME?"

Yours,

Uri David Akavia