Re: [Usability] tools on the desktop

[Jason Hoover <jasonhoover verizon net>]

On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 22:23 -0400, Rodney Dawes wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 21:35 -0400, Jason Hoover wrote:
> > On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 18:12 -0400, Rodney Dawes wrote:
> > > I like using the "Eject" button on the drive. It works nicely. :)
> > 
> > Really? Linux locks mine, and when I use a screwdriver it throws a
> > fit. :/
> 
> Because it doesn't work for everyone currently doesn't make it ideal.
> If that were the case, then nothing would be ideal unless it was already
> the current behavior, so we can just throw all these mail threads out
> the window then, since it already works ideally.

My reply has nothing to do with your specific post, but the entire
thread. I was just making a sarcastic joke about the eject button being
locked in Linux. Sorry about that. Besides, not everything has an eject
button, and needs a software unmount. Like USB key drives.

Nothing is going to work for everyone, but the point is to find a
solution, or set of solutions that will work for as many people as
possible taking the fewest amount of resources.

> Because, the current situation isn't ideal. The ideal solution is a
> combination of 2 and 2, maybe allowing 6.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm sure that you intend for 2.
Though I'm glad to see we agree about 6.

> You're also assuming everyone is smart enough to drag an icon to the
> trash can to eject it. Because some people use right click and some
> people use the trash, doesn't mean one or the other is perfect.

I'm not saying get rid of either. I'm suggesting we offer the trashcan
for people who are USED to it, not as THE solution. Nor am I suggesting
we abolish the right click menu item, since windows users are used to
that as well.

> This is not how Windows works. It in fact does require you to "unmount"
> some certain devices. It just happens that the most common use case is a
> cd-rom, which cannot be written to anyway, so Windows already does the
> right thing for the user there. Mac OS is not perfect currently either.
> And, mount behavior in the desktop, does kind of have to corelate with
> the mount behavior in the OS that it's running on top of. Windows and
> Mac OS at least have the advantage of only having to support ONE
> operating system.

My point was that someone always winds up suggesting we "fix the way
mounting works" but that it's kind of impossible without having control
of every single OS supported by gnome, or making a VFS module for it
which supports every OS supported by gnome.

> The icon thing is broken. Icons themselves should not be interactive
> like that. I didn't suggest it. I replied against it. so please don't
> attack my rebuttal in that way. An emblem to indicate that it needs to
> be unmounted might be useful, but requiring the user to unmount with
> that icon, is just broken.

I wasn't attacking your rebuttal. I wasn't attacking anyones rebuttal. I
was just bringing up the things I see brought up every time this
discussion is brought up and why it doesn't work. It's nothing personal.

> So the user can have duplication between the panel and the desktop? And
> how is a 24px tall panel any easier to click than the icon suggestion
> that initiated this thread? This is in fact, how Windows works though.
> There is a "stop devices" thing in the systray, and you have to open it
> and stop the device that you want to remove.

I also suggested a submenu or section of the places menu some time back.
I just have this feeling that the icon suggestion would end up shrinking
on smaller desktops, and get harder to see.

Also, if you use panels, you can make them bigger than 24px, thus making
the panel bigger. I also suggested it because people double-click all
over icons, on the names, on the icons, between the names and the icons,
Etc... It seems more likely they'd misfire at some point and become
horribly disappointed when the drive ejected instead of opened. This
isn't so much of an issue with a fixed-position panel, where
accidentally clicking on the icon might just make an escapable menu.

Maybe something like this in the panel:

[eject]
[Icon ]
|----------------|
|Mount:          |
|O Unmounted CD  |
|O Another       |
|----------------|
|Eject\Unmount:  |
|O Mounted name  |
|----------------|

Or Mount and Unmount submenus in the places or desktop menu. Just an
idea though.

> This just makes no sense at all. Your analogy is a bit off. There are
> knobs on all of my stereos to adjust the volume. 

<examples>

>  A knob is one of the most intuitive user interfaces there is,
> in the real world. They don't translate well to application UIs though,
> as there is no physical feedback through screen, and you can't grab and
> twist or turn them. Knobs tend to twist or turn in both directions as
> well, though, those that don't, do not tend to vary in the direction
> they do turn.  However, levers in fact, are usually pushed or pulled,
> and not twisted or turned. Levers on doors are initially confusing, as
> they are not door knobs, and there is no indication if it is to be
> turned, or pushed, or pulled. They also do vary a lot between different
> doors, or devices.

Yes. My analogy is horrid. I'll just summarize my point; As horrible as
the trashcan is, our current situation isn't much easier to find or
handle.

> The panel already does too much. The only way to add or remove things
> from the panel is through your button under a secret panel down the
> hall. We should however, just eject when dragging media to the trash.
> Popping up an error is just dumb. We can do the right thing there, so we
> might as well do it.

Which was the point I was trying to make with my admittedly miserable
analogy. Again, by panel I meant "Possibly the places menu because
that's where mounted volumes show up too" sorry about being vague there.

> A new idea might be to try and work toward doing the right thing, rather
> than just giving the user more ways to discover they can use to work
> around the wrong behavior. If there are issues in the kernel, or mount,
> or whatever, then those issues should get fixed, not used as excuses for
> maintaining the same crappy path of existence. :)

Unfortunately, the behaviour is the way it is for now, and we can't
really change that overnight. Fixing the trashcan and improving upon
either the panel applet or the places menu would be an easier way to fix
it until the way most *nixes work is changed, which I don't think is
going to happen any time soon.

I'm tired, sorry if this makes even less sense. Again, this wasn't aimed
at you Rodney, but this thread in general. Just sort of frustrated with
seeing the issue raised repeatedly only to see no progress being made.

-Jason