Re: Prefs and window positions

[Carlos Morgado <chbm chbm nu>]

On 2001.07.10 23:05:21 +0100 M . Thielker wrote:


> 
> Windows do _not_ appear in incorrect _viewports_, there is nothing wrong
> with the configuration. They appear on incorrect _physical screens_, of
> which this system has three.
> 
eeek

> Most window managers today aren't aware of multi-headed X servers, this is
> also true for sawfish.
> I really don't know how the WM can possibly save all window sizes because
> it really doesn't know which ones it should save, or, if it does, how?

in the case of sawfish you tell it what atributes it should save per window

> Where is the code to tell it to save the size and position of a compose
> window, or a message window? On my system, all Balsa windows pop up in some
> randomly chosen position with default sizes.
> 

there isn't. iirc it work the other way around. the WM can always figure it
out for itself and resize the window as it pleases. the session manager can
tell
the app "save your self" and the app given a session id stores the information
it considers relevant to restart where it left off.
unless the application is very stuborn (and badly designed) WM always has
final
say on window size and position.

> As far as I know, Sawfish doesn't support setting preferences for
> application windows individually, so a user is stuck with what the
> programmers think is best for her.
> 

preferences -> matched windows

anyway, don't thing *sawfish*. think WM. if sawfish is broken i'm sure there
are others

> If Linux / Gnome is ever going to give Microsoft a run for the money, we
> must be at least as good, hopefully better. Having a situation where a
> program is not really usable, but at the same time rejecting attempts to
> change it because having windows appear in inconvenient places is the unix
> way will not help here.
> 

write a good decent and smart WM then. don't code a WM into every app.
ever used fvwm smart placement ?


> Again: you can't have enough settings in prefs. Some may need to be hidden
> behind "Advanced..." buttons, providing such sensible defaults that 90% of
> the users will never touch them, not even know they're there. But the other
> 10% desperately need these options.

yes you can. "Make coffe" would be really really good to have. it doesn't
belong there though.
preferences that mean grafting functions of another applications into balsa
don't belong there.
good design comes from consistency. consistency is having a good WM that
does what you want all the times, for all the apps. it's definitly not
configuring in every app what it should do with it's windows.
if I tell my WM i want transients to be stacked over parent i *definitly*
don't want the app to cherfully grab my cursor and pop them up under it.
and i definitly *don't* want to have to tell every app to don't do it.
ever looked at gtk's "Look and Feel" configuration ? do you think it should
be present in every app ?

> On a triple-headed X server most applications fail miserably because window
> placement is not very practical. When I start XChat the main window will

humm .. is it :0.0 :0.1 :0.2 ? or 1 large :0.0 ?

> appear on the far right monitor while the channel list is on the middle one
> sometimes, on top of the main window at other times.

:0.0 i suppose then

> But XChat has an option to set the main window's position manually, for a

it doesn't belong in xchat

> good reason: when there are 10 windows open and you open a new one, you'll
> never know where it ends up. They all look pretty much alike and 3 screens
> is a lot of real estate to search.

that's why you have your WM either placing that particular window where
you always want it to be or doing manual placement.
window managers *manage windows*. irc programs *do not* manage windows.
window decorations are not part of a window. absolute location is something
the application should not even know.

> Once you set that option, every window will appear in that one particular
> spot and can then be moved to whereever the _user_ wants it.
> Users need to decide such things, not window managers!
> 

you really need to use twm. manuall placement galore.

actually, you really need to write a good window manager. your vision
of what a WM should do is skewed by the fact all current window managers
suck miserably in one way or another. you also don't seem to be in tune
with sawfish's config options. explore a bit. then use twm, then fvwm. 
explore the config files. then *please* write a window manager that doesn't
suck. (and please don't make it a balsa patch).

cheers

-- 
Carlos Morgado - chbm(at)chbm(dot)nu - http://chbm.nu/ -- gpgkey: 0x1FC57F0A
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