Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Greg Oliver <oliver greg gmail com>]

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 9:58 AM Paul Smith <paul mad-scientist net> wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 09:33 +0000, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > I know this is getting way of topic, but this is primarily why I shy
> > away from Flatpak. You download a blob of "stuff" and you have no
> > real idea what is in that - it could be some ancient bug-ridden
> > library that the dev has decided to use because that's what was on
> > their system then writing it 20 years ago and they can't be bothered
> > to update it.
>
> I get that people are concerned and there are some legitimate concerns.
> But some of these are just due to misunderstandings or NIH syndrome.
>
> First, flatpaks are created from a known set of content which is
> described by a declarative file.  The content is controlled so you know
> you're rebuilding from the same thing all the time.
>
> Second, flatpaks for Gnome tools such as Evolution are created and
> managed by the same people who create the Gnome software.  Snaps are
> created by Canonical, for Ubuntu.  They're not just some random
> assortment of junk that some hacker cobbled together in their basement
> and tossed out on the internet.  If you trust Gnome or Canonical to
> create the _software_ you run on your system it seems odd to not trust
> them to build a flatpak or snap for it; really there's no one better to
> do it.

Do you really think Canonical understands linux?  They have zero
developers in the kernel development process, plus Debian only has (2)
that I know of..  So, please do not use distros as live bait - it is
inappropriate - you use software from a distro that has no regard for
how the kernel / OS actually works - just a bunch of js programmers.

> The content of a flatpak/snap is actually MORE rigorously managed than
> whatever assortment of package versions you have currently installed on
> your system.

rigorously - really..

> And yes, containers can be leaky.  In fact some of that leakage is
> needed (you certainly want to be able to attach files to emails, that
> exist outside the flatpak container!)  But the leaks are minimal and
> getting plugged more and more every day.  They're very very good by
> now.
>
> And with respect to the specific leak mentioned earlier, "dependency
> hell", they've never been leaky in that way because that's one of their
> primary design goals.
>
> > And the fact that it doesn't interact with anything makes it less
> > integrated into your system - unless you go through a load of arcane
> > Flatpak command line arguments to make it talk to your environment.
>
> I didn't say it didn't interact.  I said it didn't _interfere_.  The
> Gnome services talk to each other over dbus etc. and of course
> Evolution is no exception.  Evolution sends notifications for new mail,
> calendar events, etc. to the desktop and all this works correctly, even
> though I'm running Gnome 3.36 and Evolution 3.46.
>
> The Evolution database etc. is maintained inside the flatpak container
> and it doesn't interfere with the system installed version (if any).
>
> I literally did NOTHING except "flatpak install org.gnome.Evolution"
> and it worked.
>
> > Yes, I know it's not that difficult, probably. But it's also not
> > always as straightforward as you are making out.
>
> Maybe not always: of course I can't speak to all flatpak packages.
>
> But for Evolution, it absolutely is.

flatpaks, et all are just as vulnerable to library faults as a regular
install...  The thing with flatpak / ubuntu'isms is they do not
publish them along with the flatpak versions...  If a flatpak is built
with lib x.y.z, you will never know bugs with lib x.y.z since it is
not published.

> I was skeptical too.  But I needed a newer Evo because my company was
> bought and switched from GMail to Exchange, so I tried it.  And, it
> Just Works.

Just Works :)

I like that!

Until it doesn't....

> I do have many problems with the UI changes introduced in Evo 3.46:
> putting buttons for important things on the title bar makes NO sense.
> But, that's not an issue with the flatpak.
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