Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?

["david poehlman" <poehlman1 comcast net>]

Meow!

I agree.  I am a bit mystified though.  Whenever I have used lynx <meow!>, I
have first had to find the numbers.  Admittedly, once I know what numbers
are associated with what links, I don't have to wander to them to activate
them and lists of links are good for this too in a slightly indirect sort of
way as well as find on web page where you can put in a unique string.  The
one thing that numbered links will help with is the encessent need for
people to call every link a link or to use "click here" everywhere
regardless of what it does to the usability of a page and there are a dozen
other whittisims that are used to konnote links that this would help to
foil.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
To: "david poehlman" <poehlman1 comcast net>
Cc: "Tom and Esther Ward" <tward1978 earthlink net>; "Janina Sajka"
<janina rednote net>; <gnome-accessibility-list gnome org>;
<mozilla-accessibility mozilla org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?


That's a good point, Dave, and I certainly agree that making this into a
kind of token that can inform in several ways is the right way to go.

I'm still holding out for actionable marking, though, not just informative.
It's nice, I suppose, to know that's something is a link, and it's nice to
know I've traversed it before. But, it's even nicer to be able to activate
it without navigating to it. The cat still rules on this.

David Poehlman writes:
> I may have mentioned this before, but audio styling can help here for folk
> with sound cards and perhaps some braille styling as well.  Instead of
> having the word visitted something short and meaningfull could be
insertable
> and chooseable.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom and Esther Ward" <tward1978 earthlink net>
> To: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
> Cc: <gnome-accessibility-list gnome org>;
> <mozilla-accessibility mozilla org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?
>
>
> Hi.
> I think janina is correct. The numbering links option found in lynx is
> perhaps one of the best accessibility aids in a web browser. It allows for
> quick navigation through web pages.
> Another point Janina mentioned is web browsers in Windows tend to announce
> visited link before stating the link. If a visited link message is to be
put
> in the program it should come at the end so that the end user can hear
what
> link has focus.
> The main feature I would like to see is good table navigation, and to have
> spoken feedback on what row and column I am in when carot browsing is on.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
> To: "Saqib Shaikh" <me saqibshaikh com>
> Cc: <gnome-accessibility-list gnome org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?
>
>
> > This is a fine summation of what has become the expected behavior of
> browsers under the Windows GUI. However, I am not so sure I would jump to
> the conclusion that it's the way browsing should work for everyone. Those
> seem two separate issues to me.
> >
> > A few examples:
> >
> > I find the business of marking links "visited" anoying, especially when
> the information precedes (rather than follows) the link text. First of all
> it inhibits a smooth read of content. Second, and perhaps more important,
it
> takes time. Uttering the words "visited link" requires four separate
> syllables. To top it off, it's not actionable information like the
numbering
> of links is in the Lynx (the cat) browser. You still have to tab to
> activate--unlike the cat where you can simply type the number and press
> enter.
> >
> > To my mind a far better way to proceed toward defining useful
> accessibility features is to canvas successful strategies from both GUI
and
> console environments--then to allow for their use through UA
configuration.
> If you want visited links, you should be able to turn them on--but I
should
> be able to turn them off. And, why not borrow the numbering strategy still
> available in the cat (and the chain)? What's wrong with that?
> >
> > Saqib Shaikh writes:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I ve been following the thread regarding Mozilla 1.7 RC1
acccessibility.
> > > I'd like to make some comments based upon my experience with two
Windows
> > > screen readers - JAWS and Hal.
> > >
> > > JAWS effectively textualises the screen: it inserts the word "link" or
> > > "visited link" into the text of its virtual buffer, and also inserts
> words
> > > like "list of x items" or "table with x columsn and y rows".  If you
> copy
> > > and paste from JAWS into a text editor you'll get this textual
> > > representation.
> > >
> > > In contrast Hal takes the approach of leaving the screen just the way
it
> is,
> > > and reading what is actually there.  It has a virtual focus mode, but
> this
> > > is more like a reinterpretation of the graphical screen, not a textual
> > > replacement.
> > >
> > > Likewise in Mozilla's text browsing mode I'd like links to be coloured
> and
> > > underlined, but no word "link".  Likewise Headings should be bold or
> > > whatever, and tables/lists/frames should look like what they are.  So
> what
> > > we have is a version of the main page, but with the ability to cursor
up
> and
> > > down, select text with the keyboard, do text finds within the
document,
> and
> > > also maybe have a list of links/headings/frames appear at the press of
a
> > > keystroke.  This is all quite general functionality that is acceptable
> IMHO
> > > in a text browsing mode, but which doesn't make it a screen reader
only
> > > browsing mode.
> > >
> > > Then Gnopernicus should be given enough semantic knowledge of the
> document
> > > that when it comes across a link it should know whether it is a
visited
> link
> > > or not, and when inside a table, even though Mozilla's table
navigation
> > > commands will be used, Gnopernicus should represent the table in
> > > speech/braillle in the appropriate fashion.
> > >
> > > I think this is the best way to present this UI, but would appreciate
> any
> > > comments.
> > >
> > > Saqib
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> > > gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina afb net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> > gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list

-- 

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina afb net Phone: (202) 408-8175