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Re: GNOME 2.30: go stable or go cutting edge?

Speaking from the standpoint of a user. I want it to be stable. I don't mind working with an unstable version on a virtual machine but I want my main machine to remain stable so I can work and I want to be able to upgrade my OS (ubuntu) without loosing my accessibility.
Granted I do most of my work at the command console but I still need and use openoffice and firefox along with other software and really can't afford to have those unstable or inaccessible. 

Tom


On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Willie Walker wrote:


Hi All:

GNOME 2.30 is coming out on the Ides of March (March 15).  I have one main question for you: do you want it to be stable or do you want it to have more cutting edge stuff?  This question is predicated on the assumption that GNOME 2.30 is the last of the GNOME 2 releases and GNOME 3 is coming out this fall.  It also assumes that we will resolve the harder problems we currently have with AT-SPI/D-Bus very soon.

Here's the background -- GNOME Accessibility has been facing a "perfect storm" for the GNOME 2.30 cycle.  The three major fronts of this storm are: Bonobo/CORBA elimination, WebKit accessibility, and GNOME Shell accessibility.  You can read a lengthy summary of the current state of the work at http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3.

Here's some pros/cons.  Note that the quantity of pros/cons doesn't necessarily mean anything.  They are just talking points, and actually quite simple at that.

PROS/CONS for going with the cutting edge:
==========================================

PRO: GNOME accessibility may be more widely available on smaller/mobile devices -- those devices are happy to have D-Bus but do not want CORBA.

PRO: The cutting edge stuff will likely get more testing coverage for GNOME 3.0, helping improve the GNOME 3.0 accessibility experience.

PRO: We will be able to eliminate a huge portion of deprecated stuff in GNOME.

CON: GNOME 2.30 accessibility could very well be unstable or slow for day-to-day use for doing your job or functioning in life.  Staying on GNOME 2.28.x would be recommended for people who need more stability.

CON: GOK will not work.  OnBoard and an early form of Caribou would be the on screen keyboard solutions.

PROS/CONS for staying stable:
=============================

PRO: Users should still be able to use GNOME 2.30 with the same stability and reliability they get with GNOME 2.28.x.

PRO: GOK will work.

CON: The testing of cutting edge stuff may not be as broad, so GNOME 3.0 may go out without as much testing as it needs.

CON: GNOME will need to continue to carry Bonobo/CORBA around.

CON: GNOME accessibility will remain unavailable on smaller/mobile devices that do not ship Bonobo/CORBA.

My first concern is the end user.  As a result, I tend to be more conservative and lean towards stability.  That is, making sure GNOME provides a compelling accessible desktop for reliable and usable day-to-day activity goes a long way to addressing the needs of the user.  With this, we're likely to say GNOME 3.0 will be more wrinkled in terms of accessibility and we could look to GNOME 3.2 and 3.4 to iron things out.

However, given where we are with proximity to GNOME 3, I'm also tempted by the notion of getting the new stuff out there sooner.  This would potentially forsake the accessibility of the last (or one of the last) releases of the GNOME 2 series while helping set us up for an earlier accessibility success for GNOME 3.

Please, speak up with your thoughts.  The collective opinion of our group matters and it will help shape what recommendations we will make to the release team for GNOME 2.30.

Will

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On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Luke Yelavich wrote:


On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 11:54:19AM PST, Willie Walker wrote:

Hi All:

GNOME 2.30 is coming out on the Ides of March (March 15).  I have one main question for you: do you want it to be stable or do you want it to have more cutting edge stuff?  This question is predicated on the assumption that GNOME 2.30 is the last of the GNOME 2 releases and GNOME 3 is coming out this fall.  It also assumes that we will resolve the harder problems we currently have with AT-SPI/D-Bus very soon.


Ubuntu Lucid ships with GNOME 2.30, we are keeping CORBA around, since we still use evolution 2.28 for one. So from an LTS distro and a11y maintainer POV, I would prefer GNOME 2.30 remains accessibility enabled and aims for stability. The First one or two releases of Ubuntu after this LTS will likely have crack of the day content, which will be a good testing ground for GNOME3/accessibility bug squashing.

Luke
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On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Li Yuan wrote:


at-spi2 has been put into OpenSolaris' development releases. But I can't
put it into stable release without
http://defect.opensolaris.org/bz/show_bug.cgi?id=13438 fixed. I believe
this is a at-spi and at-spi2 co-exist bug. And we still have not run a
full test for CORBA based accessibility under GNOME2.29, not sure if
there will be any new bugs. So I'd prefer we go stable for GNOME 2.30.
And we still have development releases for users and developers to test
D-Bus stuff.

Li

On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 14:54 -0500, Willie Walker wrote:

Hi All:

GNOME 2.30 is coming out on the Ides of March (March 15).  I have one main question for you: do you want it to be stable or do you want it to have more cutting edge stuff?  This question is predicated on the assumption that GNOME 2.30 is the last of the GNOME 2 releases and GNOME 3 is coming out this fall.  It also assumes that we will resolve the harder problems we currently have with AT-SPI/D-Bus very soon.

Here's the background -- GNOME Accessibility has been facing a "perfect storm" for the GNOME 2.30 cycle.  The three major fronts of this storm are: Bonobo/CORBA elimination, WebKit accessibility, and GNOME Shell accessibility.  You can read a lengthy summary of the current state of the work at http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3.

Here's some pros/cons.  Note that the quantity of pros/cons doesn't necessarily mean anything.  They are just talking points, and actually quite simple at that.

PROS/CONS for going with the cutting edge:
==========================================

PRO: GNOME accessibility may be more widely available on smaller/mobile devices -- those devices are happy to have D-Bus but do not want CORBA.

PRO: The cutting edge stuff will likely get more testing coverage for GNOME 3.0, helping improve the GNOME 3.0 accessibility experience.

PRO: We will be able to eliminate a huge portion of deprecated stuff in GNOME.

CON: GNOME 2.30 accessibility could very well be unstable or slow for day-to-day use for doing your job or functioning in life.  Staying on GNOME 2.28.x would be recommended for people who need more stability.

CON: GOK will not work.  OnBoard and an early form of Caribou would be the on screen keyboard solutions.

PROS/CONS for staying stable:
=============================

PRO: Users should still be able to use GNOME 2.30 with the same stability and reliability they get with GNOME 2.28.x.

PRO: GOK will work.

CON: The testing of cutting edge stuff may not be as broad, so GNOME 3.0 may go out without as much testing as it needs.

CON: GNOME will need to continue to carry Bonobo/CORBA around.

CON: GNOME accessibility will remain unavailable on smaller/mobile devices that do not ship Bonobo/CORBA.

My first concern is the end user.  As a result, I tend to be more conservative and lean towards stability.  That is, making sure GNOME provides a compelling accessible desktop for reliable and usable day-to-day activity goes a long way to addressing the needs of the user.  With this, we're likely to say GNOME 3.0 will be more wrinkled in terms of accessibility and we could look to GNOME 3.2 and 3.4 to iron things out.

However, given where we are with proximity to GNOME 3, I'm also tempted by the notion of getting the new stuff out there sooner.  This would potentially forsake the accessibility of the last (or one of the last) releases of the GNOME 2 series while helping set us up for an earlier accessibility success for GNOME 3.

Please, speak up with your thoughts.  The collective opinion of our group matters and it will help shape what recommendations we will make to the release team for GNOME 2.30.

Will

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On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Ginn Chen wrote:


I'm afraid the performance of Firefox is very bad with AT-SPI2.
We need to fix it before end-user gets it.
Firefox tries to send children-changed event for every child add/remove, AT-SPI2 tries to update the whole children set when it gets a children-changed event.

I'm wondering if there're enough testing for Firefox + AT-SPI2.

Ginn
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On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Halim Sahin wrote:


Hi Will,

I think both versions of at-spi should be included in gnome-2.30,
because at-spi2 need a lot of testing and not all users  want to build
it from source.

BTW.: Do we have a big improovement  of a11y in gnome 2.30 compared to
gnome 2.28?
If not, we should make at-spi2 as default for gnome 2.30.
It's important to have many users to find all critical bugs before gnome
3 arives.
The (endusers) should be able to install and use corba based at-spi as
well if they don't want
to test and report at-spi2 bugs.

Just me two cents.
Halim


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On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Jason White wrote:


Halim Sahin <halim sahin freenet de> wrote:


I think both versions of at-spi should be included in gnome-2.30,
because at-spi2 need a lot of testing and not all users  want to build
it from source.


Or if this isn't feasible, we should at least encourage operating system
distributions to create test packages.

Debian, for instance, already has some, but they need to be updated.


BTW.: Do we have a big improovement  of a11y in gnome 2.30 compared to
gnome 2.28?
If not, we should make at-spi2 as default for gnome 2.30.
It's important to have many users to find all critical bugs before gnome
3 arives.


I can just imagine the complaints on the Orca list and elsewhere if that were
done from those who wanted a stable system but upgraded, found themselves
running AT-SPI2 inadvertently, and discovered that it didn't work reliably for
them.

The (endusers) should be able to install and use corba based at-spi as
well if they don't want
to test and report at-spi2 bugs.


If both can be included, I would keep the existing code as the default for
Gnome 2.30, with a configuration option to switch to AT-SPI2.

I would like to see packages for the new infrastructure as soon as
practicable from distributors.

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On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Stephen Shaw wrote:


On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 03:12, Halim Sahin <halim sahin freenet de> wrote:

Hi Will,

I think both versions of at-spi should be included in gnome-2.30,
because at-spi2 need a lot of testing and not all users  want to build
it from source.



openSUSE had at-spi2 in 11.2, however a really old version and wasn't
very useful.  I believe that we are looking at making it the default
in 11.3.  I know we have the latest tarball in milestone 1.  We are
also spend a far amount of time helping develop at-spi2 thanks to mike
gorse.

Cheers,
Stephen
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