Re: help with data on webkit accessibility

[Kenny Hitt <kenny hittsjunk net>]

Hi.  Thanks for your explanation.
I was wondering why I was getting no speech.

Now that I understand the issue, I have to say that since Debian and Ubuntu
chose to ignore upstream, they should be the ones to fix it.
Since Linux is my only desktop OS, I depend on Firefox for access to the web.
Consider this a strong vote for fixing Firefox regressions.

          Kenny

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 03:49:47PM -0500, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-02-23 at 20:19 +0200, Xan Lopez wrote:
> 
> > OK, so any of the missing caret browsing issues actually prevents the
> > app from working at all?
> 
> Yup. Startling, isn't it? <huge grin>
> 
> Okay, all kidding aside.... Basically, there are several things going on
> here:
> 
> 1. The accessibility work that had been done is WebKitGtk already was
> awesome, but sufficiently different from what we see in other Gtk+ apps
> that quite a bit of custom scripting would be needed in Orca in order to
> cause Orca to present WebKitGtk content. In addition, without fixes for
> the remaining caret-navigation issues, we'd likely have to implement our
> own caret navigation model. This tends to be not performant and at times
> flakey. :-(
> 
> 2. There are some things we cannot script around in Orca, namely the
> bugs which are still open and listed as blocking bug 25531:
> 
> * If an AtkRole is not implemented, Orca cannot discern what that object
> is, let alone present that object and the user's interaction with it
> correctly.
> 
> * If we have no idea where content is on the screen (i.e. the character
> and range extents), Orca cannot piece together a line's worth of content
> (which is a hack to begin with) or enable the user to "flat review" it.
> 
> * If we have no idea if an object is focused or not, it's at best a
> guess whether or not events from that object should be presented --
> assuming events from that object are even being emitted.
> 
> * The accessible table hierarchy is truly borked....
> 
> 3. Shaun said that he wouldn't migrate Yelp to WebKitGtk until the
> accessibility issues had been addressed. (Thanks Shaun!!)
> 
> With all this in mind, I had to decide if I should cobble together an
> interim script in Orca -- to support a version of Yelp which in theory
> users wouldn't be seeing -- which would cause some content to be
> presented correctly, some content to be presented incorrectly/oddly, and
> some content to not be presented at all.  Or should I try to become
> familiar with WebKitGtk internals and contribute patches to fix bugs and
> make what WebKitGtk presents more inline with other Gtk+ apps? Given
> that Yelp would still (officially) be using Gecko, I went with the
> latter. And I honestly do believe that when GNOME 3.0 rolls around, and
> Yelp is accessible *and* content in Epiphany is accessible *and*
> accessing this content via Orca is more reliable and more performant
> than what we've been able to do w.r.t. Gecko, it will have been worth
> it.
> 
> Having said that.... Because of the decision which I made, there is no
> Orca script in place for WebKitGtk content at the moment. This means
> that unless WebKitGtk behaves 100% like a standard Gtk+ app -- which it
> doesn't, and which includes fixing the bugs I mentioned in an earlier
> message -- an Orca user is not going to have much success. :-(
> 
> So the question now is where do we go from here? Do I spend my time
> hacking something together in Orca which only kinda sorta works to
> address the fact that Debian and Ubuntu have decided to do their own
> thing? Or do I spend my time trying to work on the WebKitGtk side of
> things? I'm sure my tone conveys my opinion. ;-) However, if the
> community consensus is that I should try to get *something* working on
> the Orca side of things, I will do my very best.
> 
> (And yes, Xan, I know. I've been away from WebKit for the past several
> weeks. There were some significant changes -- and regressions -- in
> Firefox 3.6 a11y which had many Orca users very unhappy. So I got
> diverted temporarily to sort all of that out. :-( )
> 
> --joanie
> 
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