Re: Gnome is not easy to use in 800x600

On 09/05/00 12:03:01 +0100, John Harper <john dcs warwick ac uk> wrote:
| Frank Felfe writes:
| |It is my understanding that the WM manages run time window data. I
| |still think, that persistent window data must be stored by someone
| |else, otherwise the WM would take over session management tasks. I
| |thought the point of sawmill is to manage runtime window data only and
| |leave session management to other programs, but I might be wrong. Is
| |this kinda stuff specifies somewhere as standart?
| The ICCCM dictates that the wm should save session data (window layout,
| stacking order, etc..)

The ICCCM is an ivory-tower disaster that proves that decreeing behavior without actually testing it in the real world doesn't work. The vast majority of X11 app misbehaviors I see are because someone decided that they should slavishly follow the ICCCM and/or the XSM spec even when they are clearly broken.

In particular, the specification that the WM maintain window positions has so many flaws it is ludicrous. Some examples:

- you can't change window managers without losing your saved window

- wm/sm interaction is undefined and problematic

- interaction between both wm/sm and USPosition/PPosition is apparently
 sufficiently problematic that user-specified geometry doesn't work
 reliably in at least some apps once a window has been positioned manually
 (reproduced with gnome-terminal and sawfish; I suggested the person who
 tripped over this mail to gnome-devel-list, but he hasn't yet that I've

Granted that we have no good alternative to the ICCCM or the XSM spec, but following either when they are obviously wrong can only be called stupid.

(This is a general X11 rant and is not limited to GNOME, by the way; there are similar examples of the insanity imposed by slavish ICCM/XSM compliance in KDE, CDE, etc.)

brandon s. allbery     [os/2][linux][solaris][japh]    allbery kf8nh apk net
system administrator        [WAY too many hats]          allbery ece cmu edu
electrical and computer engineering                                    KF8NH
carnegie mellon university      ["better check the oblivious first" -ke6sls]

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