Re: [Fwd: Re: Your final comments on gswitchit in 2.4...]

[Danilo Segan <dsegan gmx net>]

Christian Rose wrote:

>I don't see how anyone is or has been trying to discriminate Cyrillic
>users the way you describe, at least not on these lists. It's just that
>most of the core people seem to not use this type of functionality, at
>least not very often, and hence don't know much about the problems
>involved and what's really needed. So we need to learn these issues.
>This is not an uncommon scenario; it used to be that way with for
>example accessibility too, until accessibility experts came along and
>contributed code and gave advise on how to write accessible
>applications. :) It's just the way free software works.
>  
>
Let me contribute my 2c

I use Serbian language which is written in cyrillic script, but also 
writeable in latin script (and many people use it). I don't use 
Gswitchit, so I'll consider myself not to be biased :-)

The problems I come across while using Gnome are following:
-- non-Gnome apps can't work with shortcuts properly, so if my keyboard 
is set to cyrillic, I cannot get any of M/C-* keys in Emacs, Xterm, etc.
-- I don't need English layout except when working with Emacs, and even 
then Serbian Latin layout is sufficient

At the moment, I live with the first problem. Ideally, it should be 
solved on the X or XKB level, rather than on desktop environment level. 
Actually, when I tried doing the same with some nasty tricks (putting 
english layout on fifth and sixth level, and used Control as a 
non-consumed/preserved modifier to get to it -- this fixes it for other 
apps like KDE, Xterm, etc.), but then Gtk+ barks (see 
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100439 -- and just to be 
clear, I don't know what the correct fix would be except for 
implementing the Gtk+ accelerator processing on the X level). So, Gnome 
already provides one workaround which does not play very nice with some 
XKB "uber-features".

With the second problem of keeping English map loaded, I also have to 
live with, and I keep all three layouts (Serbian, Serbian Latin and 
English) loaded using XFree86 XKB "multi-layout" feature, and use the 
"shift_toggle" option to switch between them.

I guess gswitchit feature of having "secondary" ("not switchable by 
keyboard") layouts which could be bound to certain windows (in my case 
Emacs should use English layout which I cannot access otherwise). 
Though, I believe this should also be a feature of window manager, or at 
least it seems sane to me that a WM keeps "XKB state for a window" along 
with other window properties (perhaps Sawfish provides that ability, but 
it's an overkill). For me, it's on the same level as "focus follows mouse".

Again, "secondary" (it's shorter to type, so I'll stick to this term) 
layouts would come in handy with some of the maps provided by my XKB 
configuration. Those include several layouts and one of them is the 
Serbian Latin which is using Unicode digraphs for "lj" and "nj" instead 
of the more common typing of two letters (like I did now, because I 
won't run a "setxkbmap" twice just to type those two characters). Since 
this would tend to be rarely used, but at some times still needed, it 
would belong on the "secondary" layouts.

In order to improve situation for me, the following would help:
-- allow definitions of "primary" and "secondary" maps
-- allow binding secondary maps to certain apps and/or windows

Still, I don't require that many new features because I (with Chaslav 
Illich) have invested considerable time in developing a suitable XKB 
maps (see those sixlevel monsters at 
http://srpski.org/dunav/dunav-d.2.tar.gz), and they now provide most of 
the things I need. Others who find my maps unsuitable for their daily 
usage might benefit more from other features found in gswitchit.

OTOH, I wouldn't mind having an XKB configuration applet which would 
simplify XKB map creation for most simple things (like, redefining a 
single key, and adding something to the 3rd level for it) -- this would 
help many who frequently use some combination of similar scripts (eg. 
Serbian and Russian which differ in some 5 letters, or Swedish and 
German as you pointed out) without even the need to use the cumbersome 
Compose key (it would amount to three-key sequence with it). I myself 
could write eg. Russian much more easily with a Serbian layout (it's 
very much different from Russian layout), and just add a few keys I miss.

I hope that my usage patterns can at least a bit contribute to this 
discussion.

Cheers,
Danilo