Re: Why 'the logout problem' is a GNOME problem, not a WM problem

[Ryan Warner <rwarner plains NoDak edu>]

Adam Powell wrote:

> James Ramsey wrote:
>
> > I've harped on this before, but it seems to need repeating. If GNOME's
> > design allows GNOME to become accidentally bereft of a window manager
> > because a user does something natural, such as click on "Logout" on the
> > root menu and expect to be logged out, then GNOME's design is at fault.
> >
> > It has been said that the reason GNOME allows this to happen is that
> > the window manager should exit via the session manager, not by simply
> > terminating. This sounds reasonable, except for one thing. Simply
> > terminating rather than using the session manager is typical behavior
> > for window managers. Why should GNOME be designed to expect the window
> > manager to behave in a non-typical fashion? That the window manager
> > exits by simply terminating should have been accepted as an engineering
> > constraint to be worked with.
>
> Hmm.  It sounds like you're saying that there should be two paths to log
> out, via the GNOME panel and when the window manager terminates.  The
> problem with this is that when the window manager terminates, if there are
> open GNOME apps that need to interact with the user, e.g. "Save this before
> logging out?", this would have to happen without the window manager.  Major
> pain in the neck.
>
> The only workaround I can think of is that when gnome-session detects
> window manager termination, it throws up a dialog saying something like,
> "Your window manager has quit.  This is very dangerous.  You should log out
> from the GNOME panel instead.  Restart, or proceed to log out with no
> window manager?"  This is inelegant at best.
>
> > The current behavior of GNOME is not appropriate, especially for
> > something that calls itself "1.0". Some suggestions:
> >
> > 1) If the GNOME developers really think that the window manager is the
> > problem, then perhaps they should provide code that points to a
> > solution, such as maybe patches for some common window managers. I
> > don't expect the GNOME developers to become window manager
> > distributors, but if they can jumpstart the developers of the window
> > managers to 'do it right', maybe they can solve the problem for good
> > and benefit everybody. (I am presuming that GNOME expects the window
> > manager to work with xsm, X's session manager, not gnome-session. If
> > GNOME does expect the window manager to work directly with
> > gnome-session, then it is being awfully presumptive indeed.)
>
> There is a (still small) handful of GNOME-compliant window managers, with
> varying capabilities and resource requirements.  Furthermore, there is
> thorough documentation on how to make any wm compliant- see
> http://www.gnome.org/devel/gnomewm/book1.html (which is linked directly
> from "Development Info" in the links on top of the GNOME home page).  This
> may mean having to give up your old window manager, and possibly replacing
> that window manager with another one that accomplishes the same objective.
> Tough.
>
> > 2) Find a way to deal with window managers as they are. This may mean
> > having to give up some functionality, and possibly replacing that
> > functionality with something else that accomplishes the same objective.
> > Tough.
>
> To say, "This may mean giving up some functionality- like session
> management" is really not helpful.  Intelligent logout (as in, "Oh crap, I
> logged out without saving the last 10 hours worth of work!") is one of the
> more important features of systems like MacOS and Windoze- and GNOME too-
> and sacrificing it would be a Very Bad Thing.
>

Hear, Hear!

>
> > I can put up with bugs in GNOME because I know the developers don't
> > like them any more than I do. I find it pretty disappointing, however,
> > to find that the response to a nasty flaw in GNOME is passing the buck
> > rather than trying to find a solution.
>
> Um, how about suggesting a solution other than, "Redo all existing window
> managers" or "Forget about the most important features of session
> management".  No need to provide code, but at least desired behavior would
> be nice.
>

Umm.  Since I haven't coded any GNOME stuff or pratically any X stuff I don't
understand how xsm or GNOME session management works.  That said, what about
having GNOME detect when the wm exists and then it starts twm or a wm listed
in a environment variable, any simple wm that's usually installed on a system
would do, after which it would proceed to exit normally.  It shouldn't
remember that wm as your default though, that would be annoying.  Also maybe
it should put up a window for a couple seconds telling you the preferred way
to exit GNOME rather than your window managers root menu.  Better yet, GNOME
aware window managers would just tell GNOME to exit rather than bombing out
and this scenario is avoided, but this sloppy solution would at least give you
a wm while the session clean up stuff occurs.

>
> > ----I am a fool for Christ. Mostly I am a fool.----
>
> Zeen.  Me too. :-)
>
> -Adam      "...the firmament sheweth His handywork" (Ps 19:1)    ///

Me. Three.