Re: [GnomeMeeting-list] Re: Gnomemeeting not running over the net...

[Sanjay Kumar Goel <skgoel omlogistics co in>]

Craig Southeren wrote:

> Hugh,
>
>   Whilst I share some of your opinons of gconf, and don't use
> GnomeMeeting myself, I think your extended rant is completely off-topic
> for this list.
>
>    Comments on Damien's PGP keys, email address availability, the
> availability of free speech, whether you should go back to BSD/SunOS,
> the use of XML, and descriptions of other such diverse topics, complete
> with obscenities and outrageous claims, whilst presumably fascinating
> and highly interesting to you, are of negligible interest to anyone else.
> Except, as of cource, as an excellent example of how to violate
> netiquette and make yourself look like a complete idiot.
>
>   You seem to be a member of that strange group of people who feels that
> the Open Source community owes you something. Somehow you think that
> just because you decided to use a program that you paid nothing for,
> have contributed nothing to, and have nothing good to say about, that
> you are entitled to demand at the top of your ugly little voice that the
> world should stop and fix your petty little problems.
>
>   Reality check: nobody cares if you really did help invent hypertext.
> You are either part of the solution, part of the problem, or part of the
> landscape.
>
>   If you feel something is wrong, and no-one seems able to help you,
> then you have the right to fix it yourself, or stop using the program.
> No-one is holding a gun to your head and making you use Gnomemeeting.
> Use it, or fix it, or help us fix it, or take your attitude elsewhere.
>
>    Craig
>
> BTW: Who am I? I helped write the OpenH323 library that GnomeMeeting
> uses, and I happen to think that Damien has done a good job. He does not
> deserve this sort of crap.
>
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:57:18 -0700
> Hugh Daniel <hugh road toad com> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >   My sarcasm is based on frustration, I find things like gconf to be
> > overly complex while adding little to the value of the entire system
> > or at least programs like gnomemeeting.  This makes my system more
> > brittle, which I considder a bad thing.
> >
> >   I am trying to simply run gnomemeeting on host A and have the
> > display come up on host B, nothing more.  It's not working and no one
> > has bothered to write a man page for any of this, the help and about
> > boxes are no use etc. etc. etc.
> >
> >   It's too brittle.  It breaks too easily.  It's getting too dependent
> > on various unstable poorly thoughtout and sadly documented parts.
> >
> >   It's just getting to me... :r)
> >
> >   By 'it' I mean linux, RedHat, Gnome and only a bit gnomemeeting which
> > is at the long end of the chain being whipped about.
> >
> >
> >   FYI on the page you pointed me at is the 'answer' to my problem:
> > http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/
> >
> >   Under the section title (which no one would bother to tag so I can't
> > give you a direct link to...)):
> > "How do I log in from two machines at once?"
> >
> >   Is the answer to my query.  Thanks!  Oh, don't bother to pass this
> > info on as it is completely useless, none of the files or commands
> > mentioned exist...  Trying the ones that seem likely fails, the error
> > messages never give me anything to work with etc.
> >
> >   This is getting to be the EVERYDAY hell I fight in Linux land that
> > is almost making me want to go back to SunOS 3.5 or some such rot.
> > What good does it do me to have all the source in the world if none of
> > it works or is even fixable (due to it's bloat)?
> >
> >
> >   I was quite able to read your web page (and one of the best in our
> > community at that!), I was just unwilling to submit a bug report via
> > bugzilla or any web page portal.  I edit my bug reports in my local
> > editor and send them in via email.  I would be happy to take an ASCII
> > form and fill in a couple of fields used to sort the report.  Beyond
> > that I find the web bug reporting interfaces to be horrid.
> >
> >   So I am pushing folks to have bugs probject address.  What if I did
> > NOT have a high speed line into the net but was only on the net via
> > UUCP?  Don't laugh (if you even know what that is, it's getting a bit
> > long in the tooth these days...) I have friends who are using UUCP and
> > sometimes FTP and thats it for access to the net.  Really.
> >
> >   It's at least secure.  Inside their house they are using V4L for a
> > baby monitor though...
> >
> >
> >   I did not find the doc for GConf and ORBit because they are not in
> > the fricking system.  If they are not findable by "man -k THING" they
> > are not Unix programs and don't belong on my system.  Period.
> >
> >   I _am_ serious, crazy as it sounds.  Unix IS learnable due to things
> > like the well thought out "information mapping" and permuted index
> > that make up the man pages.  Not the horror that is info pages or
> > HOWTO's, they are just easy ramps (the HOWTO's are useful in some few
> > cases where your trying to copy exactly what someone else has done on
> > the same hardware, with the same rev of the software, with the same
> > librarys, etc. etc. etc.) for some beginner hobbyists.
> >
> >   For some reason Gnomemeeting uses Gconf and therefor your somewhat
> > responsible for it.  If you did not use it then I would be running the
> > test I wanted to run by now, not that it was any big deal in the first
> > place.
> >
> >
> >   Your PGP2 key is kept in a DNS MX RR?  What?  You have to be kidding
> > me!  Thats eaiser to do then finger?  Humm let me guess, convert the
> > at sign to a dot and lets try it!:
> >
> > ahost$ dig dsandras.seconix.com MX
> >
> > ; <<>> DiG 9.1.3 <<>> dsandras.seconix.com MX
> > ;; global options:  printcmd
> > ;; Got answer:
> > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 63909
> > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
> >
> > ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> > ;dsandras.seconix.com.                IN      MX
> >
> > ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
> > seconix.com.          10800   IN      SOA     seconix. root.seconix.com. 4 604800 86400 2419200 604800
> >
> > ;; Query time: 141 msec
> > ;; SERVER: 216.181.81.1#53(216.181.81.1)
> > ;; WHEN: Mon Apr 22 23:22:16 2002
> > ;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 86
> >
> >   Humm, no PGP2 key hiding there so I guess I screwed it up.
> > Rats... :r)
> >
> >   If you use gpg (which is pretty useless I have to admit) then you
> > could use the one piece of data you have about me, my email address,
> > and get a key this way:
> >
> >       finger hugh xisp net | CENSORED
> >
> >   Opps, I allmost screwed up there as my Lord President has "decreed"
> > that I don't have Free Speach if it's crypto or crypto hole shaped if
> > I am talking to non-holy Americans or some such rot.  Well it should
> > be obvious from my sig at the bottom.
> >
> >
> >   I am not at all worried about FreeS/WAN, I am quite worried about
> > the Linux situation in general though and if it's all going to be at
> > all useful in a few years.
> >
> >   I would hate to have to chuck all the Free & Open Source Linux code
> > and go back to *BSD because everyone in Linux land has Bill envy to
> > the point where they don't even want to try to understand why Unix is
> > so winning that Linux is a copy of it.
> >
> >   Every time I hear that the kernel does not need working Makefile's
> > my blood goes down 10 deg C in tempture.  Everytime someone like the
> > OpenBSE SSH folks claim that shipping a GPL version is more important
> > then script compatibility for thousands of lines of installed base my
> > hope for the future take a nose dive.
> >
> >   I am pushing you folks (the Linux Community), and begining to push
> > HARD, to understand that just copying MS to get MS-GNU is _NOT_ good
> > enough, no MS-GNU software is going to be in the computers of my
> > starship (should I be so lucky...).  We have to do _better_ then both
> > the greddy fools at MS _and_ better then the Unix folks.  We should be
> > aspiring to what the Smalltalk folks could do, and even better.
> >
> >   The Unix folks and the Smalltalk folks have DECADES on us, we have
> > our work cut out for us, both to understand what came before and to
> > create new that is as solid, robust, useful and flexable as what they
> > have done before us.
> >
> >   The real world is not using Linux yet, why?  Well lets go for an
> > example.  I have been pushing my team real hard to use Gnomemeeting
> > rather then RAT as gnomemeeting is being worked on (ie theres hope
> > that it will get better, RAT is dead and I don't have time to fix it
> > myself).  When we use gnomemeeting we have to give up and use the
> > phones about 60% of the time.
> >
> >   Even when we use it it's like using a phone in the 1930's, tough.
> > Now thats in the middle of the night on VERY high speed lines (T1's or
> > better even for the ends) and just going a few hundreds of kilometers.
> >
> >   Now I have a few ideas how attack the problem (and I will be in
> > Europe for 6 weeks where it seems you folks are), but most folks are
> > just giving up and (very sadly) using MS-shit.  If we are lucky they
> > end up on Apple...
> >
> >   We really have to think, design and then code beyond the current
> > limits of MS-design and even our own users expectations.  Otherwise
> > folks will just believe what Gates marketdroids tell them on the boob
> > tube and we will fade away or go down via some fascist laws about
> > 'security'.
> >
> >   So far we have been living off the capital of the brilliance of Unix
> > and the hate of MS-everything, but both will fade in time and we will
> > be left to our own devices and our own reputations.
> >
> >
> >   Oh, no.  Why did I go look into my .gconf dir...  XML to save a few
> > state variables that could be (need tobe...) command line arguments?
> > What?
> >
> >   Each time stamped?  The user is just a name and not even hashed to
> > make it somewhat unique!  Your burning 84 kibibytes of my disk to save
> > less then a single kibibyte of data?  Most of the data is repeating
> > the schema string again and again!
> >
> >   Maybe nautilus needs this hell, but something like gnomemeeting
> > should not.  Was it really that much easyer to use gconf then to parse
> > a foo=bar file?  Eighty four times easier?  Times every user out
> > there?
> >
> >   Yea I know XML is the "promised land", and I was one of the people
> > who fucking INVENTED hypertext, but I am not seeing so much a
> > wonderful future of XML heaven as I am seeing an infinite hell like
> > the mid-east with XML growing over everything like cancerous
> > cataracts...
> >
> >
> >   Well you don't need this shit from me.  I have maybe three ideas to
> > make VoIP more useful and would be interested in passing them on at
> > some point while I am in Europe.  Maybe I could just write them up,
> > but if any of you folks are going to be at RIPE or SANE I would be
> > happy to buy you a bheer (me a fruit smoothie, California you know...)
> > and bounce them off one of you.
> >
> >   Good luck with gnomemeeting, it and the web site are least very
> > visually slick!
> >
> >               ||ugh Daniel
> >               hugh freeswan org
> >
> >                       Systems Testing & Project mis-Management
> >                       The Linux FreeS/WAN Project
> >                       http://www.freeswan.org
> >
> > PS: Opps, correction, a new version of RAT just came out!
> >
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: 2.6.3ia
> > Charset: noconv
> > Comment: For the matching public key, finger the Reply-To: address.
> >
> > iQCVAwUBPMUT11ZpdJR7FBQRAQEG2gQAgntNRtg2GcbrDcQp3Ihmcwcm1XiycymB
> > Jhmd+ggw/Zyq53C4ROkMiVLTamD+4g+YUKukkj5msB0Y/Ryptlv7ohfRg3l7D1xy
> > 7UNipabbVgadQJ0JeT0M0dIevxMNnPkEwY5NG2bLWFiVFhCjRiHAVkOM6HKYeLfl
> > 0X4mcuubJvM=
> > =/JGS
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gnomemeeting-list mailing list
> > Gnomemeeting-list gnome org
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnomemeeting-list
>
> -------------------------------------------
>  Craig Southeren,
>  Managing Director, Equivalence Pty Ltd
>  Director, MicroTelco Gateway, Quicknet Technologies, Inc.
>  Voice: +1 415 864 5225 x 700    Fax:   +61 2 4367 3140
>         +61 2 4365 4666          H.323: phone.craig.southeren.com
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