Re: [GnomeMeeting-list] GM 3.00 : PLEASE ALL READ AND CONTRIBUTE

[Damien Sandras <dsandras seconix com>]

Le jeudi 07 avril 2005 à 03:00 +0200, Bruno Hertz a écrit :
> Hello Damien ...
> 

hi again :)


[....]


> A (tabbed) contact list window of course is essential, for quick access
> as well as monitoring online status. I seemed to understand though, and
> correct me here if I was wrong, that you want to separate address book
> and contacts also on data/storage/maintenance level. This would definitely
> be the wrong way to go. The contact list should be a view (or select, in
> database terminology) on the address book. Like, in pseudo sql,
>  select whatever_fields from address_book where fav=true
> or something like that.
> 
> I just took a look again at the 1.0.2 phonebook, which I don't use, so I
> wasn't quite sure what's there already. But I see you already have
> friends/family/work categories, probably internally maintained as separate
> boolean attributes. Now, the great thing is that even now an entry can be
> in several categories. So add 'fav' here, and you have the box a user should
> check to have an address book entry appear in the contact list window.

The problem is that all of this has heavily changed in 1.2.1 with EDS
(evolution) integration.

Now, when you edit an user in the address book, you could have a boolean
indicating if you want it in your favs or not. It should be possible.
Moreover, each contact can be in one or several categories. That would
permit to organize them in groups. The only problem I see is that Jabber
also permits to do this, but on the server-side. So integration will be
far from easy.

Online/offline status would only be indicated when available.

The roster would be another view of the address book, like you say.


> 
> The next step of course would be making the contact list selection
> variable, e.g. a dropdown list from which I can choose which category
> should be shown, like friends, family, etc., much like PDAs and other stuff
> works. I.e. by allowing the user to limit a view on the address book by
> category, or even the beginning of the name or whatever. I'm not actually
> asking for the latter though, just illustrating a point.
> 

That might be another possibility. 

> I have an increasing feeling that I'm talking about the obvious, so
> please apologize if I'm utterly redundant.
> 

You are not :) You bring new ideas.


> > Jabber also has some SIP integration and vice-versa, which is nice.
> >
> 
> 
> Now that's remarkable. If you could point me to docs/sites regarding Jabber->SIP
> integration, I'd be grateful (no need though for that if it's amply available

http://www.iptel.org/ser/doc/jabgw/xjab-manual.html

That's SIMPLE, not exactly pure SIP, but anyway it proves integration is
always possible.

> on the Jabber web site, I'll take a look there soon). But are you sure about
> the other direction, since I think SIP is a pure VoIP standard totally unrelated
> to Jabber. Maybe you're talking of messaging gateways ... (?) If so, just say
> 'yes' and I'll find out the rest myself ...

'yes' ;)


> > But in that case, if Jabber support is added, where would you see the
> > status of your peers?
> >
> 
> 
> Well, I'd think the jabber URL of my peer would only be another field in his
> phone book entry, just as his phone number is. And the contact list just a
> view on the phone book which selects the 'favs', as detailed above. With
> separate persistent or even internal storage models, you'd create considerable
> maintenance overhead for the user as well as for yourself, as a developer. A
> contact object is just a phonebook entry object with fav attribute 'true'
> (or 'fav' part of it's category array/vector/whatever). Think model/view/
> controller or whatever fits this issue in the OO design world. Contacts
> are just a view and are reflected on storage only by an attribute (or the
> value of an attribute).
> 

Nice idea, really.

[...]

> >
> > As long as you come back to GM, but you should really try CVS with SIP,
> > it works well, especially with Asterisk ;)
> 
> 
> I'll take this then as the announcement you promised me here
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnomemeeting-list/2005-February/msg00018.html
> when I last tried to 'build the beast' in February :) OK, I'll try
> the next time I get around to it. If you have an intermediate alpha you know
> works reasonably well, you could store it away somewhere also, btw., since
> quite a few other people have been asking about GM SIP either. And you know how
> things go with CVS, fine today, broken tomorrow ...
> 
> 

Yes, I'll try to do a freeze. I still have something to change, a patch
to apply to OPAL, and then I'll release 1.3.1 and make it public, with
the known bugs and problems.

> >
> > But there are many alternatives, I guess most users do not want a
> > softphone, they want to do simple audio chat, like Skype, like MSN
> > Messenger, that is why I wanted to create an hybrid.
> >
> > But I see now that I have some users like you who prefer the softphone
> > approach.
> >
> > So I will rephrase my question in another way.
> >
> > Should GM become :
> > - a softphone, what it is now
> > or
> > - an hybrid: mainly a softphone with IM capabilities
> > or
> > - an hybrid: mainly an IM support voip
> >
> 
> 
> That's what I already said, there basically are no viable softphone
> alternatives. You obviously aren't aware of how unique your software actually
> is on Linux. Just recently I helped some newbie to set up asterisk with
> H323 support because he *insisted* to use GM, being the only phone he
> could live with. Now, what does that mean to you? Again, among the
> advantages GM has over other Linux softphones are, besides video, the
> good audio quality/latency balance, robustness (I never got it to hang
> or crash) and the clean interface (!)
> 
> On the other hand, if you want to go the chat way and compete with Skype,
> just go ahead, but I'm pretty sure you've lost already. H323 and SIP (and
> hopefully IAX at some point) are the real deal, full fledged telephony
> protocols for serious and powerful applications, private and business,
> but definitely difficult to set up for internet use without proper server
> support. Just consider the NAT issues, and what troubles even experienced
> end users have with that. Video is the only advantage you currently have over
> Skype, and even if you add IM to that (how popular is phonegaim btw, not at
> all I'd say), as soon as Skype chooses to support video too your dear chatters
> will go and drop GM like a hot potatoe.
> 
> On the other hand, if you'd choose to polish GM, add multiple lines, call
> holding, transfer, conferencing and all that comfort stuff, plus, finally,
> encryption, I'm sure if softphones will ever play a major role in serious
> business, GM will be a notable player.
> 
> Last not least, why do you want to reinvent the IM wheel? Gaim is very good a
> that. So why not just support the VoIP (e.g. SIP) messaging yourself and for
> the rest gateway to Gaim? Add Jabber if you like, but I wouldn't go beyond
> that. Really, while already good, GM is still lacking so many (comfort)
> features as a softphone, I'd really allocate those precious resources to them.
> 

That has always been my advice. But I will be honnest, I have one major
fear, seeing all my users disappearing, and having coded during a few
years for nothing, just to be beaten by proprietary alternatives like
Skype, or reverse engineered protocols like the MSN one.

But, probably, I should leave GM as what it is the best at : a
softphone. Port it to windows to gain more users, but always as a
softphone.

We'll loose a part of the chatters, but perhaps not all of them.


> 
> >
> > Notice, talking about XTEN, they will also introduce IM with Jabber.
> > Dunno if it is a trend or the future.
> 
> 
> I guess not. Rather, the trend will be a sensible VoIP protocol yet to be
> written, which is NAT and firewall friendly, offers encryption, messaging
> integration and video support. Unfortunately, the geniuses who wrote H323 and
> SIP apparently weren't fully aware of all of these points. Skype is, but they
> don't write anything, they just place their products to make money (which is OK,
> by the way). So the others go along patchworking, to get at least parts of the
> cake. What a mess, really ....
> 
> Anyway, apos for the rant, but I'd really be sorry if you went with the chatters
> who I feel take whatever comes along, and are going with Skype already anyway.
> My 2 cents (Euro wise :) )
> 

I guess you are right...


> Regards, Bruno.
> 
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 _      Damien Sandras
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