RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by default?

[Christian Neumair <chris gnome-de org>]

Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray Cumming Comneon com:
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> and other similar bugs from the links here:
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
Thanks for pointing out those links.

> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this.
Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
would be a great achievement.
I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
developers to bite the bullet!

> I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
low-level component?

regs,
 Chris

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris gnome-de org] 
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> > To: gtk-list gnome org; hig gnome org; usability gnome org
> > Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of 
> > GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi there!
> > I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> > debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> > forward. Here it comes:
> > The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> > Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> > the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> > contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get 
> > a border of
> > 12 around and between the action area and any other widget 
> > placed in the
> > dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to 
> > create the
> > dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we 
> > would have
> > to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 
> > 5 and add
> > a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> > change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> > that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a 
> > clean solution.
> > What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> > people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> > each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> > default.
> > I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at 
> > first lead to
> > many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the 
> > long-term it will
> > hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
> > 
> > regs,
> >  Chris
> > 
> > [1] 
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
> lert-spacing
> 
> PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
> sent to.
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