Re: [orca-list] Orca & GSettings

[trev saunders gmail com]

HI,

first sorry about the flamishness if it bothered you.

> In a separate response in this thread, Alejandro said the following:
>
> AL> The solution we're designing is based in a façade+adapter that it'll
> AL> make things easier for integration in any desktop around. As I said
> AL> previously this work is beneficial for any desktop around.
>
> And in yet another response, Alejandro stated:
>
> AL> That's exactly our idea, implement a abstract system in python that
> AL> uses differents backends (GSettings, Gconf, text files,
> AL> whatever...).
> AL> In this way we'll bring a flexible system to Orca and easily 
> AL> extensible to any other desktop.

yes,this is why after Alejandro explained what he was actually thinking over doing I'm saying what I hear 
sounds fine with me.  Maybe I misenterpreted his first message, or maybe it wasn't clear.

> So it certainly sounds to me like we're getting the best of both worlds:
>
> 1. Bringing Orca into full compliance with the GNOME community
> 2. Making Orca *more* compatible with other desktop environments

Yes, as I understand the design now its fine.

> Like it or not, Orca is a GNOME module and GNOME modules are expected to
> adhere to certain community standards and conventions. Rolling your own
> funky, kludgy -- not to mention broken -- settings and storing them
> wherever the spirit moves you to store them does not, I'm afraid, fit
> well with the standards and conventions we're expected to adhere to.

we've gotten away with it though which was my point.

> At this point, I can hear you say, "So what? Let's leave GNOME!"
>
> Well... Contrary to what you suggest here:
>
> >  Even if they did decide to do something what can they do?  take
> > resources on gnome.org I believe that's about it other than remove us
> > from the list of packages in gnome.  If this were to be a problem I
> > for one would happily put forward the time and money to setup orca on
> > a vps of our own.
>
> We actually get more benefit from being a GNOME module than that,
> including, but not limited to:
>
> 1. GNOME translators. Orca is translated into, I believe, 60 languages
> now. If we leave the GNOME community, we lose that. Would you also
> happily put forward the time and money to ensure that Orca continues to
> be available to all users regardless of language?

ok, I don't see being a part of gnome a absolute necesity for having translators, but I'll admit it probably 
helps.

> 2. Funding. It's not much, but every little bit helps. In particular we
> have received -- and hopefully will in the future receive -- funding to:
>
> A. Pay developers to fix bugs and implement new features that Orca users
> want and need.
>
> B. Attend conferences and hackfests and summits so that Orca developers
> can get in the same room with one another, and with developers from
> other modules, to solve problems facing Orca users.

True.  I'm not very convinced that gnome absolutely won't give money to outside organizations especailly if 
they are the only show in town, but I'll agree being in gnome helps here.

> So when we split off from GNOME, I assume you'll foot the bill for this
> as well?
>
> 3. Being the ad hoc measure by which other GNOME modules are judged for
> accessibility. In other words, "works with Orca" is something the GNOME
> developer community, and the GNOME release team, see as a requirement.
> Granted, there have been times where this hasn't been enforced quite to
> the degree that I would have liked, but we're starting to see
> improvements in that area.  And with everything coming down the pike for
> GNOME 3.0 (including gnome-shell and bonobo deprecation), the "works
> with Orca" requirement is a very, very nice thing to have. If we split
> off from GNOME and become Trev's Screen Reader, will the GNOME developer
> community and the GNOME release team see "works with TRS" as a
> requirement? Hard to say for sure, but I'd bet no.

under that name probably no, but orca instead of gnome-orca probably yes.  what other choice do they have?
 
> I don't think leaving GNOME is a smart idea. Instead, I think we should
> stay, figure out how we can fit in nicely with the expectations of the
> GNOME community, **while at the same time achieving the ability to work
> well in other environments such as KDE.** The solution being developed
> by Emergya strikes me as the way to accomplish these things, and I am
> grateful that they are doing this work.

yes, what Alejandro explained thismorning seems good here too.

> As for your other points:
>
> > agreed, lets fix actual bugs not do things that might improve a UI some.
>
> If you don't mind my asking, who is the us implied by your "lets"? I've
> been working as a volunteer literally full-time hours each and every
> week (and have more or less for the past four years) on Orca. I spend
> the bulk of that time working to fix actual bugs. This GSettings change
> has not changed that. In fact, it is *because* Emergya is doing this
> work that I am able to continue to work full-time on fixing actual bugs.

the us was Emergya.  I was trying to be constructive and offer some work that I didn't think would be a bad 
idea (moving to a gnome only position).

> To be honest, these days the only time I'm not working on fixing bugs is
> when I have to respond to emails like this one. <smile>
>
> > Hope I haven't been to personal :-)
>
> Well, actually....

 It sounds like you took something I said personally?  I don't think any of this was directed at you?  It was 
debating how if and how to handle configuration.  It wasn't too bad.  After we're just talking about how code 
should work is business right?  Personally I *like* it when people shoot down my ideas, then they save me 
from implementing stupid stuff I'll have to fix.


> To recap some recent history: Oracle essentially pulled the rug out from
> under us, and yet (if I do say so myself) Orca is doing ok. In fact, bug
> fixing has increased; not decreased. And, while GNOME 3.0 might be a tad
> rough around the edges on day 1, I think Orca + GNOME 3.0 is going to
> come out alright. How are we accomplishing this, given Oracle's actions?
>
> 1. I'm putting in even more time (reminder, I'm a 100% volunteer)
>
> 2. Some community members have stepped up to the plate (thanks guys)
>
> 3. The Consorcio Fernando de los Ríos/Junta de Andalucía have very
> generously provided us with the engineers from Emergya who, in addition
> to doing the settings work, will be fixing bugs and writing additional
> documentation.
>
> 4. The GNOME developer community is supporting us by providing
> direction, by enforcing the requirement of accessibility, and through
> the aforementioned funding.
>
> Your response, in contrast, has not been to dive in and help us fix all
> those Orca bugs you say "we" should fix. Instead, your response has been
> to shoot down the work of those of us who are actually fixing bugs and
> to suggest we pull out of the very community whose support we need.

Sugguesting fixing bugs was to sugguest what I at the time thought was a better idea, I didn't mean to imply 
that there were lots of unfixed bugs people weren't working on.  again, I atleast consider shooting down bad 
ideas a favor to the comunity preventing us from doing work implementing and then fixing.  I think I've said 
this before not sure though While I'll happily work on bugs in opentts, and would be willing to look at the c 
in at-spi-registryd.  I just can't stand working on python, sory, the oranization of really short functions 
and the general syntax just drives me up a wall sorry aboutthat.  So if you have some bugs in opentts were 
the SSIPClient api isn't doing what you want fell free to ask.  Another issue I have here is that about the 
only gui program I use is firefox which means I don't notice the OO or eclipse bugs.


> Orca will remain a GNOME module in good standing. Orca will move to
> GSettings. As part of the move to GSettings, the engineers from Emergya
> will give Orca a means by which to exist in other desktop environments.
> And I will go back to fixing bugs now. <smile>

I don't have a problem with orca being a gnome module so long as it doesn't hurt non gnome users, and after 
this morning it looks like thats fine.

Trev