Re: How do I switch to Sawfish??

[Thomas Vander Stichele <thomas apestaart org>]

> > > I've seen nothing in Gnome 2.0 that looks like it's complete.
> > 
> > Sorry, GNOME 2 might be different from what you were expecting, or not
> > include your favourite 'features' or 'options' that 1.x did, but does not
> > rule out the fact that it's our cleanest and most stable release ever.

An important thing to realize which doesn't get said much (or maybe others 
don't agree) is that Gnome 2 is a full-scale REVOLUTION.  Major 
scaffolding has been massively improved, incredible thought processes have 
culminated in really good guidelines, focus for the desktop, very clear 
ideas of what Gnome wants to avoid in the future, bringing the 
developers in line with these new ideas, and so on.

Stuff like this is HUGELY more difficult than all of the code that goes 
in.  It's an incredible thing to have pulled off though, and some of the 
people who use it don't often respect that fact (I'm just replying to you 
Ali, since a lot of the times you make very generic disparaging comments 
which make me believe that Gnome just forgot to include a few of your 
favourite features, and you complain about them vehemently ;) )

Now, since this is a revolution, people who used to be part of the system 
have to make a choice about if they want to move along forward or not.

Gnome 0.x seemed to be all about "let's try and make a free software GUI 
desktop !"
Gnome 1.x seemed to be all about "let's think this through a little, make 
some good libraries, and get some apps out"
And Gnome 2.x is all about "let's take the best of what we have done in 
the past, design this thing right from the ground up, and make this work 
the way we want it to be"

It often takes three times to get things right, and I think Gnome has it 
right on the money this time around.

Point in proof (non-statistical, but hey), is that today an ex-collague of 
mine passed by who used to rabiately hate Gnome.  At his new job, every 
GUI app he writes (and he works for a very important on-line booking 
service provider in Germany that handles all of the big guns)  is now 
written with Gnome 2 technology.  He loves it - it's faster, it's nicer to 
program with, it's (to him) a lot of things that Gnome 1.x didn't do 
right.  And he's moving the whole of the company to migrate to 
Linux desktops with Gnome 2.  Knowing this guy, I can only say that the 
whole that is Gnome 2 is done right ! 

And I, for one, don't mind thanking each and every one of you 
Gnome 2 developers, for a job incredibly well done.

As for Gnome 2 itself ?

Gnome 2.0 is the release that we as a community need to make, every bit of 
it.  It's the release that makes app developers say, "Hey, I need to learn 
this technology and start using it !". It's the release that convinces 
distributions to consider Gnome 2 and push it on.  And as Jeff said, very 
little features that all the developers agreed upon didn't make it into 
it.  The few (beside migration) they want to put in will make it in soon.
This whole design process has been PUBLIC.

If Gnome 2 set out to "kill features, eliminate craprock and give sensible 
defaults", then criticism about not implementing all of the 1.4 features 
is silly.

If Gnome 2.0 doesn't do everything you want, that's OK.  Try it out, let 
us know what you're missing, and if it fits the design, it will be 
considered.  You don't HAVE to use it if it doesn't work for you right 
now, but you can help making a Gnome that you do want to use.  Not EVERY 
feature will be added, but they will be considered.

Gnome 2.2 is the release that will feature applications using Gnome 2.x 
technology, better integration, and so on.  Tutorials on Gnome 2.x 
technology will be written, documentation will be fleshed out, and so on.
If you care about stability (which also means "integration and desktop" 
stability and "feature and menu stability") this is the one you'll want to 
be using.

In short, having EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW just doesn't work ! Understand that 
rule if you want to complain about missing stuff, and consider it !

> the problem is i hear sentences like these from david a couple of times
> now. to say i hear them all the time. somehow the gnome developers
> missed the point of users real needs or the users missed the point of
> what gnome should be.

That's a very broad general statement based on very little back-up.  Of 
course you'll hear people complain, every change has people complaining.  
People complaining is never a sign of whether the change was good or bad.
What's worse, people that don't complain don't always voice their opinion !
I think that you are at least as much missing the point of user's real 
needs.

So I'd like any gnome user take the time sometimes to also thank your 
developer when you ask for features or offer criticism.  Honestly, how all 
of you developers keep putting up with some of the crap you get for brave 
decisions you make and hard work you do, it's incredible.

So Ali, and others who like to criticize some decisions - please consider 
that next time.  
A sentence like 
>instead wasting the         time writing useless stuff 
> like HIG or GEP it would have been more              important writing 
> serious programming manuals with examples

would be very discouraging to me if I was Seth or Calum or Michael - 
especially since they obviously (and rightly so) care enough about it to 
write this up.  And you didn't even consider there that you're not 
*paying* Seth or Michael and that they have the right to work on what 
*they* think is important, not what *you* think is important.

Now, for the constructive bit : why don't you take all that energy (which 
I know you have) and do what *you* think is important : take a library you 
want to use, learn it a little, and write a tutorial ? Settle it like a 
real man or woman does ;) Because, yes, we all agree with you that 
tutorials are a good thing.  Please make it happen.

Gnome 2 developers, you all rock.  I'm thankful for every day that I 
feel good about not having to use Windows but still be able to get my 
work done.  The proof will be in the pudding and I'll be handing out 
spoons at the next gnome 2-feelgood-gettogether.

Thomas
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