Re: Where we stand in regard to the future platform / desktop technology

[jamie <jamiemcc blueyonder co uk>]

On Sun, 2004-03-28 at 17:35, Dalibor Topic wrote:

[snip]
> 
> The more relevant question is: are the free java runtimes good enough for
> developing GNOME & GNOME applications? My impression from following gnome-java
> bindings mailing list is: yes, they are. They are also getting better and better
> at running the other, non-GNOME stuff, like Eclipse, OfBiz, JBoss, and whatever
> makes some people happy, but that's quite irrelevant here, I guess, since these
> projects are not part of GNOME.

Well I would consider good development tools as essential for whatever 
we plan to use and Java has an excellent one in Eclipse hence I do
consider it relevant whether free java implementations can make use of
it.

> 
> If you are dissatisfied with the performance of free java runtimes, you may be
> inclined to help to improve it. One of the interesting integration projects for
> a prospective, engaged and well-educated developer in runtime technology in
> particular, pretty much just like you,
I wish!

>  would be to bring Kaffe and gcj together
> by finishing the work that was done in this area, and merging in the 'better
> than hotspot' jit, gc and threading performance improvements from the latte
> project back into Kaffe. Your fame would rival that of Miguel, at least :)
> 
> On a side note, I don't get why the Mono crowd is so scared of free java
> runtimes, that they have to advocate their runtime by claiming how inferior
> others are.

Having used Java before and having read what the differences are between
JVMs and CLR, its quite clear that Mono's will have the upper edge here.
I'm not scared at all of Java runtimes but I know from experience they
are not efficient and can be horribly slow unless they have a pretty
good JIT. 


>  If mono's JIT is so ueber-cool, it will be adapted and merged in by
> some free java runtime project, like Kaffe or gcj, and that will be the end of
> that argument. If the C# bindings are good enough for building GNOME apps, now
> that's a great thing in my opinion, regardless whether C# becomes a part of the
> GNOME core, or not.
Eventually, perhaps. As far as Gnome is concerned, do we want to wait
longer for a JVM to catch up Mono in this regard?

> 
> I am really glad to see projects like mono and dotGNU provide more options for
> free software developers. You won't see me pointing the finger at mono and
> claiming that it is inferior to Kaffe because it's not as "complete" or
> performant as Microsoft's .net implementation.

Instead of "complete" then lets clarify it as "amount of extra work
required". As I said in previous emails the bulk of this extra work
would be in the JITs rather than following SUN/MS (which is not on the
agenda anyhow). 

>  
> 
> So instead of advocating an "either mono or free java" solution, you may want to
> think about a world where the free java and free C# camps don't play to the tune
> of the marketing battles that the respective large companies play, but instead
> work together[2] on advancing the state of the art of free software development. 
> 
> Just a thought from outside of GNOME.

Thanks, But I'm not in Novell's camp here - I just want Gnome to make
use of the best technology available and that means using the best VM.
Java can be used on mono so its nothing personal against java but if
java runs better on mono than a free JVM then I dont see what the
problems people have with this.

The political/strategic arguments against Mono seem to be half baked at
best (given the amount of cloned MS technology already in Gnome + no one
is endorsing or following the .NET/SUN platform by adopting either VM)

Anyhow, we can decide this issue in a fair and square manner by having a
look at both VMs in say 6 months time. We can compare\benchmark them on
stability, features and performance and decide the winner on technical
merit. If that winner turns out to be a free JVM then I will back it
100% to be included in the following release of GNOME. The six month
period should be enough time to have something stable and suitable and
enough time for SUN to reconsider their stance and maybe donate
something to help out your JVMs.

jamie.

> 
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
> 
> [1] Or whatever that's called nowadays in the non-free world.
> [2] Or at least peacefully coexist :)
> 
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