Re:gnome-devel-list Digest, Vol 8, Issue 1

["juliocep" <juliocep uol com br>]

Hello All.
I agree with Michael. As a java
developer to for 4 years I think would
be good to make java the Gnome desktop
language. One because java is already
supported through GTK+ and two because
it is already very popular. It could
bring more productivitie for Gnome
developers and make Gnome more popular
and powerfull against M$.

All the best.
Julio.


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Gnome Desktop Language
(Michael Anckaert)
>    2. Re: Gnome Desktop Language
(Jamie McCracken)
>    3. Re: Gnome Desktop Language
(Hongli Lai)
>    4. Re: Gnome Desktop Language
(Kristian Berg)
>    5. Re: Gnome Desktop Language
(Rahul Sundaram)
>    6. Re: Gnome Desktop Language
(Hongli Lai)
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:06:16 +0100
> From: Michael Anckaert
<anckaert gmail com>
> Subject: Gnome Desktop Language
> To: gnome-devel-list gnome org
> Message-ID:
<3b10906c041209060619cd4de9 mail gmail com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hello all,
> I'm new to this list, just
subscribed today. I've been using
gnome for
> a long time now, started with v1.4.
> As you may have figured out, this
mail is about a Gnome desktop language.
>
> After reading an (old) article on
zdnet.co.uk, I heard about this
> subject and decided to see how this
discussion has evolved in the
> Gnome community.
>
> Unfortunately, this is the only
thread I found in the archive.
>
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-March/msg00593.html
>
> My personal favorite is Java. I've
been programming java for a year or
> so and have really grown to like
it.Mono isn't really a candidate for
> me, as it's to much a M$ product.
>
> In the thread I read in the
archives, Java isn't seen as a candidate.
> I think this isn't true. Java is a
very good candidate to become the
> official Gnome Desktop Language.
> Instead of waiting for Sun or IBM to
release their JDK under an oss
> license, the Gnome community should
contact Sun or IBM and try to
> convice them to release Java or the
JDK under an oss license.
> Anyone with common sence should
realise that incoporating java into
> Gnome can only be a good thing. For
both the Java and Gnome community.
> As things are going, Java will be
dead in a couple of years and .Net
> will controll most of the software
around.
> Using Java as the Gnome desktop
language can change this. It will make
> Gnome development more accisible to
others, thus creating more
> applications for Gnome and
increasing the use of Java.
>
> As said before, Mono isn't really a
candidate for me. I think that
> there is to many risc that Microsoft
will slow down or halt Mono (and
> Gnome) development with lawsuits and
such. I haven't read much about
> the subject so I can't really give
valid reasons/facts for this.
>
> Well, this were just my two cents.
> I hope to hear what you think about it.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:37:19 +0000
> From: Jamie McCracken
<jamiemcc blueyonder co uk>
> Subject: Re: Gnome Desktop Language
> To: Michael Anckaert
<anckaert gmail com>
> Cc: gnome-devel-list gnome org
> Message-ID:
<1102603039 6501 18 camel localhost localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On Thu, 2004-12-09 at 15:06 +0100,
Michael Anckaert wrote:
> > Hello all,
> > I'm new to this list, just
subscribed today. I've been using
gnome for
> > a long time now, started with v1.4.
> > As you may have figured out, this
mail is about a Gnome desktop language.
> >
> > After reading an (old) article on
zdnet.co.uk, I heard about this
> > subject and decided to see how
this discussion has evolved in the
> > Gnome community.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this is the only
thread I found in the archive.
> >
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-March/msg00593.html
> >
> > My personal favorite is Java. I've
been programming java for a year or
> > so and have really grown to like
it.Mono isn't really a candidate for
> > me, as it's to much a M$ product.
>
> Well java and mono are just as bas
as each other in that respect as both
> of them are dominated by large
suspect companies.
>
> >
> > In the thread I read in the
archives, Java isn't seen as a candidate.
> > I think this isn't true. Java is a
very good candidate to become the
> > official Gnome Desktop Language.
>
> I doubt that - tying ourselves to
one language is risky and Java isn't
> exactly the nicest or easiest
language to use. There are also big
> question marks over both performance
and efficiency (memory usage) so we
> would need an OSS kick arse AOT or JIT
>
> > Instead of waiting for Sun or IBM
to release their JDK under an oss
> > license, the Gnome community
should contact Sun or IBM and try to
> > convice them to release Java or
the JDK under an oss license.
> > Anyone with common sence should
realise that incoporating java into
> > Gnome can only be a good thing.
For both the Java and Gnome community.
>
> Java already has bindings for Gnome
and yes thats a good thing.
>
>
> > As things are going, Java will be
dead in a couple of years and .Net
> > will controll most of the software
around.
>
> I see it as the other way around.
.net is unlikely to make an impact
> there in web services as Java is
very much entrenched. Also the desktop
> performance of .net is pretty poor
especially start up time, excessive
> memory consumption and of course you
have to distribute a 20mb+
> framework just so that your .Net
apps work on all ms platforms.
>
> > Using Java as the Gnome desktop
language can change this. It will make
> > Gnome development more accisible
to others, thus creating more
> > applications for Gnome and
increasing the use of Java.
>
> no more than at present cause we
already have java bindings.
>
> >
> > As said before, Mono isn't really
a candidate for me. I think that
> > there is to many risc that
Microsoft will slow down or halt Mono (and
> > Gnome) development with lawsuits
and such. I haven't read much about
> > the subject so I can't really give
valid reasons/facts for this.
>
> IMHO the legal crap is just FUD -
there are no patents that threaten
> Mono - its all a hypothetical
pipedream by those who dont want to see
> mono make a mark on linux.
>
> Mono is a good candidate for Gnome
because you can run Java on it as
> well as C# and VB.net. However I
doubt it will ever make it due to
> strong resistance and also there are
much better alternatives especially
> on windows (cf Delphi) that give you
component based RAD without all the
> Garbage Collection and framework
crap which mar the performance,
> efficiency and distribution of
Java/.net/Mono apps.
>
>
> jamie
>
> >
> > Well, this were just my two cents.
> > I hope to hear what you think
about it.
> >
_______________________________________________
> > gnome-devel-list mailing list
> > gnome-devel-list gnome org
> >
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-devel-list
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:44:03 +0100
> From: Hongli Lai <h lai chello nl>
> Subject: Re: Gnome Desktop Language
> To: Michael Anckaert
<anckaert gmail com>
> Cc: gnome-devel-list gnome org
> Message-ID: <41B864B3 7010409 chello nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Michael Anckaert wrote:
> > Unfortunately, this is the only
thread I found in the archive.
> >
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-March/msg00593.html
> >
> > My personal favorite is Java. I've
been programming java for a year or
> > so and have really grown to like
it.Mono isn't really a candidate for
> > me
>
> Frankly I think Java will not
succeed in this area until there's a
> viable open source implementation.
GCJ is promising but it doesn't fully
> implement the Java specs yet, and
performance isn't optimal. Besides,
> Java has a huge VM overhead, even
when GCJ is used. Apps take many
> seconds to load, and they eat tons
of RAM. Back when I had 128 MB RAM,
> my computer swaps like mad whenever
I've started a Java applet.
>
>  > as it's to much a M$ product
>
> Watch out for people (Slashdotters)
flaming you down for being a "zealot".
>
>
> > Instead of waiting for Sun or IBM
to release their JDK under an oss
> > license, the Gnome community
should contact Sun or IBM and try to
> > convice them to release Java or
the JDK under an oss license.
>
> Hasn't that already been tried
before? I think Sun once announced that
> they'll open source Java. And then
they suddenly cancelled the plans.
> And there are tons of people who are
against open sourcing Java, because
> it will cause "fragmentation" and
will "kill" the language, etc.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:43:36 +0100
> From: Kristian Berg <kriberg tihlde org>
> Subject: Re: Gnome Desktop Language
> To: gnome-devel-list gnome org
> Message-ID:
<1102603416 655 29 camel localhost localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> tor, 09,.12.2004 kl. 15.06 +0100,
skrev Michael Anckaert:
> > Hello all,
> > I'm new to this list, just
subscribed today. I've been using
gnome for
> > a long time now, started with v1.4.
> > As you may have figured out, this
mail is about a Gnome desktop language.
>
> Hi!
>
> > My personal favorite is Java. I've
been programming java for a year or
> > so and have really grown to like
it.Mono isn't really a candidate for
> > me, as it's to much a M$ product.
>
> Mono is not an M$ product, as it is
a free implementation of the C#
> language, released as free software.
Although some may argue it has a
> little "stench" of Microsoft about
it, I don't think so.
>
> Many students are thought computer
science using the Java language, so
> by choosing Java as the "official
Gnome desktop language", the Gnome
> community can tap into a vast
potential developer base. But then again,
> anyone who has written Java code for
a couple of years, can easily start
> using C#.
>
> > In the thread I read in the
archives, Java isn't seen as a candidate.
> > I think this isn't true. Java is a
very good candidate to become the
> > official Gnome Desktop Language.
> > Instead of waiting for Sun or IBM
to release their JDK under an oss
> > license, the Gnome community
should contact Sun or IBM and try to
> > convice them to release Java or
the JDK under an oss license.
> > Anyone with common sence should
realise that incoporating java into
> > Gnome can only be a good thing.
For both the Java and Gnome community.
> > As things are going, Java will be
dead in a couple of years and .Net
> > will controll most of the software
around.
> > Using Java as the Gnome desktop
language can change this. It will make
> > Gnome development more accisible
to others, thus creating more
> > applications for Gnome and
increasing the use of Java.
>
> Last time I heard, the mono vs java
was a non-issue, as it spawns a
> giant discussion of the blessings
and curses of each language and no
> real decision can be made. It may
seem like the developers working for
> Novell want mono and the Redhat guys
want java.
>
> After what I have read, using Sun
java isn't an alternative, as it has a
> license which restrict how you can
distribute it. IANAL, but it would
> seem distributions can't ship with
java. Redhat people have been working
> hard to make the GNU classpath
project compatible with the sun JDK.
> Together with the IBM Jikes jvm,
we've got a viable alternative.
>
> > As said before, Mono isn't really
a candidate for me. I think that
> > there is to many risc that
Microsoft will slow down or halt Mono (and
> > Gnome) development with lawsuits
and such. I haven't read much about
> > the subject so I can't really give
valid reasons/facts for this.
>
> I think this is an issue which could
be just as big risk with Java. Sun
> is positioning itself with Microsoft
and sending more and more flack/fud
> towards RedHat, so they could
possibly be just as likely as Microsoft to
> cause problems.
>
> --
> Kristian Berg
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:42:10 -0800
(PST)
> From: Rahul Sundaram
<rahulsundaram yahoo co in>
> Subject: Re: Gnome Desktop Language
> To: Hongli Lai <h lai chello nl>,
Michael Anckaert
> 	<anckaert gmail com>
> Cc: gnome-devel-list gnome org
> Message-ID:
<20041209164210 43273 qmail web8501 mail in yahoo com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi
>
>
> >
> > Frankly I think Java will not
succeed in this area
> > until there's a
> > viable open source implementation.
GCJ is promising
> > but it doesn't fully
> > implement the Java specs yet, and
performance isn't
> > optimal.
>
> It doesnt need to implement the full
spec before
> becoming useful. WINE didnt emulate
all of windows api
> either
>
> GCC 4.0 will improve the situation
with gcj. anybody
> working on these things can get
major apps like
> eclipse and tomcat compiled using
gcj. redhat rawhide
> already contains some interesting bits
>
>
>
> =====
> Regards
> Rahul Sundaram
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 17:47:55 +0100
> From: Hongli Lai <h lai chello nl>
> Subject: Re: Gnome Desktop Language
> To: Rahul Sundaram
<rahulsundaram yahoo co in>
> Cc: gnome-devel-list gnome org
> Message-ID: <41B881BB 50606 chello nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > It doesnt need to implement the
full spec before
> > becoming useful. WINE didnt
emulate all of windows api
> > either
>
> And many (especially large)
applications don't work on Wine.
> (Personally I'm only interested in
running Ragnarok Online in wine but
> it has never really worked.)
> I don't really get your point.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
_______________________________________________
> gnome-devel-list mailing list
> gnome-devel-list gnome org
>
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-devel-list
>
>
> End of gnome-devel-list Digest, Vol
8, Issue 1
>
**********************************************
> 
 
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