Re: Complaint of the Slovak coordinator

[jhs jsschmid de]

Hi Laco!

Be patient, we are on it. More or less just a bit of text work left on the
final response.

Regards,
Johannes

> Hi Johannes
>
> As it is almost two weeks from your last email, I would like to ask
> whether you have come to any conclusion, or if not when do you think
> you will decide?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Laco
>
> On 18 May 2010 08:59,  <jhs jsschmid de> wrote:
>> Hi Marcel!
>>
>> Thanks for your answer. I disagree with some points but that's perfectly
>> ok. After rereading my mail it sounded a bit personal and I want to
>> apologies for that as that wasn't my intention. Also thanks for
>> summarizing the content of the slovak page.
>>
>> To all: The GTP coordination team is carefully discussing this matter
>> and
>> will decide soon whether we take any action and what that might be. In
>> the
>> meantime, unless you have something really new I don't think it's worth
>> to
>> extent this discussion further.
>>
>> So, everbody calm down a bit, do your work (that's actually what will
>> improve the translation status most) and you will hear from us.
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> Johannes
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 01:19:11AM +0200, Johannes Schmid wrote:
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>> > That's true. But if you have users, it does not automatically mean
>>>> > you'll have bug reports. Yes, you'll get some of them but it is not
>>>> > clear if it would be enough. From the past I know most of
>>>> translation
>>>> > bugs we found were found during the translation update by
>>>> translators
>>>> or
>>>> > during the review. Our user base is far smaller than German or even
>>>> > Czech.
>>>>
>>>> Note that this is not about the major things (because they will be
>>>> resolved during review) but about some remaining issues where
>>>> translators might have had a wrong thought. And people file more bug
>>>> reports than you think.
>>>
>>> It really depends.
>>>
>>> In most cases users are not able to find minor bugs easily. If the
>>> translated string looks reasonable but it is incorrect, the user will
>>> be
>>> hardly able to find the problem. In most cases to find the minor bug
>>> you
>>> need to compare the English original with the translated sentence.
>>> Â This
>>> is not a task most users do.
>>>
>>> If it was not easy for translator/reviewer to find the minor bug I do
>>> not believe the bug will be found/reported by an average user.
>>>
>>> The minor bugs can be find only by hard work in the translation team.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > > there won't be any users and thus no bug reports. So, I would
>>>> encourage
>>>> > > you to drop the final review stage (now).
>>>> >
>>>> > To have this done I would have to set up more strict rules to become
>>>> a
>>>> > reviewer. I opted for different approach: to allow all members to
>>>> try
>>>> to
>>>> > do the reviewer's job to see how it will go.
>>>> >
>>>> > This allows us to catch at least some bugs by current reviewers. And
>>>> > this brings up a chance for potential good reviewer to show and
>>>> improve
>>>> > his work. In case I would allow to review only members to whom I can
>>>> > trust the proces would slow down even more.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I see a big problem here. You seem to trust very few people and
>>>> this will cause problems in an open-source projects. You simply need
>>>> to
>>>> trust that people are willing to do good work and they will improve
>>>> over
>>>> time.
>>>
>>> I review their work. My trust is based on observation.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > This is not like launchpad. I agree. But the difference is not very
>>>> big.
>>>> > To have started a translation you just need to register to the
>>>> Damned
>>>> > Lies, join the team, reserve for translation and submit a po file.
>>>> You
>>>> > can do it in few minutes. I do not know how launchpad works, but I
>>>> think
>>>> > it would be similar easy.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, but you have a po file then. That's great as it brings you a
>>>> translation for free if the person joins the team or not. There is no
>>>> point in rejecting those translations just because people didn't want
>>>> to
>>>> join the team fully. (Of course, they should fix their stuff when it
>>>> gets reviewed).
>>>
>>> That's true.
>>> Without joining the team the review would be really hard.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also you didn't answer my inital question if you could drop the formal
>>>> introduction mail.
>>>
>>> Sure. I can. But let me elaborate a bit:
>>>
>>> In February 2010 few members of our team created a page where they
>>> summarized several things where the team organization should improve
>>> (acocrding their opinion). The page is here:
>>>
>>> http://live.gnome.org/SlovakTranslation/Others/N%C3%A1vrhy%20na%20zlep%C5%A1enie%20fungovania%20t%C3%ADmu
>>>
>>> Entry #1 is about joining the team. Rough (shortened) translation
>>> follows:
>>>
>>> Simplification of team joining
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Supported by: Peter, Roman, Laco, Ivan.
>>>
>>> Pavol offered improvements for his web form so it can be used as
>>> needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In April Pavol finished his work on the web form and I stated that on
>>> the page (rough translation):
>>>
>>> Status as of 2010-04-20: The web form works as expected. I consider
>>> this
>>> issue resolved.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nobody complained. It looked that we solved the issue with the
>>> registration email.
>>>
>>>
>>> About a month after that Peter picked up this as a reason for the
>>> coordinator change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Unfortunatelly, this is not true. Sometimes the workflow knowledge
>>>> of
>>>> > new members is poor.
>>>>
>>>> They managed to translate and upload the file? What else do they need
>>>> to
>>>> know about the workflow as long as they aren't reviewers/committers?
>>>
>>> At least two things:
>>> 1. To use proper action for upload (if not the translation might be
>>> overlooked by rest of the team).
>>> 2. To reserve/upload again once the translation is returned back by a
>>> reviewer.
>>>
>>>> Please note that translating the file means that you already had to
>>>> setup lots of things.
>>>
>>> Yes. You need to download a file, start a random text editor, edit the
>>> file, and finally upload it.
>>>
>>>> > I agree. Now, we are in process to have such rules set up.
>>>>
>>>> I really wonder that you don't already have translation rules? How did
>>>> you manage to do things in the past? I think every half-way solid
>>>> GTP-Team has at least some list of most-used terms.
>>>
>>> We are going to be a half-way solid GTP-Team hopefuly soon.
>>>
>>>> > > Reviewers will notice when there is an inconsistency within the
>>>> strings
>>>> > > and are able to point that out. I think most teams have no problem
>>>> in
>>>> > > sharing modules between different translators.
>>>> >
>>>> > True. This is why I am doing now final review for all modules. I
>>>> hope
>>>> > this will change soon.
>>>>
>>>> The reviewers != you - trust in them, they know the language!
>>>
>>> This is dangerous definition ("they know the language"). With some
>>> generalization you said that everybody knows his language in a way
>>> you'll trust them regararding the language matter. That is simply not
>>> true.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I disagree. It depends. Other translators can select other modules,
>>>> so
>>>> > the rules are same for everybody.
>>>> >
>>>> > Some people does like to feel that this module is their work and
>>>> they
>>>> > are responsible and proud for them.
>>>>
>>>> That's ok, but they should then be able to provide a 100% translation
>>>> by
>>>> release date and if they cannot do that they will have to give up the
>>>> module or at least open it for others.
>>>
>>> This would be true is everything else is at (or near) 100 %, but not
>>> true if you are in the middle and there are plenty of untranslated (and
>>> free) modules.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> --
>>> +-------------------------------------------+
>>> | Marcel Telka   e-mail:   marcel telka sk  |
>>> | Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â homepage: http://telka.sk/ |
>>> | Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â jabber: Â  marcel jabber sk |
>>> +-------------------------------------------+
>>>
>>
>>
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