Re: Complaint of the Slovak coordinator

[Laco Gubík <lacogubik gmail com>]

Ok, thanks.

2010/6/1  <jhs jsschmid de>:
> Hi Laco!
>
> Be patient, we are on it. More or less just a bit of text work left on the
> final response.
>
> Regards,
> Johannes
>
>> Hi Johannes
>>
>> As it is almost two weeks from your last email, I would like to ask
>> whether you have come to any conclusion, or if not when do you think
>> you will decide?
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Laco
>>
>> On 18 May 2010 08:59,  <jhs jsschmid de> wrote:
>>> Hi Marcel!
>>>
>>> Thanks for your answer. I disagree with some points but that's perfectly
>>> ok. After rereading my mail it sounded a bit personal and I want to
>>> apologies for that as that wasn't my intention. Also thanks for
>>> summarizing the content of the slovak page.
>>>
>>> To all: The GTP coordination team is carefully discussing this matter
>>> and
>>> will decide soon whether we take any action and what that might be. In
>>> the
>>> meantime, unless you have something really new I don't think it's worth
>>> to
>>> extent this discussion further.
>>>
>>> So, everbody calm down a bit, do your work (that's actually what will
>>> improve the translation status most) and you will hear from us.
>>>
>>> Thanks and regards,
>>> Johannes
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 01:19:11AM +0200, Johannes Schmid wrote:
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> > That's true. But if you have users, it does not automatically mean
>>>>> > you'll have bug reports. Yes, you'll get some of them but it is not
>>>>> > clear if it would be enough. From the past I know most of
>>>>> translation
>>>>> > bugs we found were found during the translation update by
>>>>> translators
>>>>> or
>>>>> > during the review. Our user base is far smaller than German or even
>>>>> > Czech.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that this is not about the major things (because they will be
>>>>> resolved during review) but about some remaining issues where
>>>>> translators might have had a wrong thought. And people file more bug
>>>>> reports than you think.
>>>>
>>>> It really depends.
>>>>
>>>> In most cases users are not able to find minor bugs easily. If the
>>>> translated string looks reasonable but it is incorrect, the user will
>>>> be
>>>> hardly able to find the problem. In most cases to find the minor bug
>>>> you
>>>> need to compare the English original with the translated sentence.
>>>>  This
>>>> is not a task most users do.
>>>>
>>>> If it was not easy for translator/reviewer to find the minor bug I do
>>>> not believe the bug will be found/reported by an average user.
>>>>
>>>> The minor bugs can be find only by hard work in the translation team.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > > there won't be any users and thus no bug reports. So, I would
>>>>> encourage
>>>>> > > you to drop the final review stage (now).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To have this done I would have to set up more strict rules to become
>>>>> a
>>>>> > reviewer. I opted for different approach: to allow all members to
>>>>> try
>>>>> to
>>>>> > do the reviewer's job to see how it will go.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This allows us to catch at least some bugs by current reviewers. And
>>>>> > this brings up a chance for potential good reviewer to show and
>>>>> improve
>>>>> > his work. In case I would allow to review only members to whom I can
>>>>> > trust the proces would slow down even more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I see a big problem here. You seem to trust very few people and
>>>>> this will cause problems in an open-source projects. You simply need
>>>>> to
>>>>> trust that people are willing to do good work and they will improve
>>>>> over
>>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> I review their work. My trust is based on observation.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > This is not like launchpad. I agree. But the difference is not very
>>>>> big.
>>>>> > To have started a translation you just need to register to the
>>>>> Damned
>>>>> > Lies, join the team, reserve for translation and submit a po file.
>>>>> You
>>>>> > can do it in few minutes. I do not know how launchpad works, but I
>>>>> think
>>>>> > it would be similar easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, but you have a po file then. That's great as it brings you a
>>>>> translation for free if the person joins the team or not. There is no
>>>>> point in rejecting those translations just because people didn't want
>>>>> to
>>>>> join the team fully. (Of course, they should fix their stuff when it
>>>>> gets reviewed).
>>>>
>>>> That's true.
>>>> Without joining the team the review would be really hard.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also you didn't answer my inital question if you could drop the formal
>>>>> introduction mail.
>>>>
>>>> Sure. I can. But let me elaborate a bit:
>>>>
>>>> In February 2010 few members of our team created a page where they
>>>> summarized several things where the team organization should improve
>>>> (acocrding their opinion). The page is here:
>>>>
>>>> http://live.gnome.org/SlovakTranslation/Others/N%C3%A1vrhy%20na%20zlep%C5%A1enie%20fungovania%20t%C3%ADmu
>>>>
>>>> Entry #1 is about joining the team. Rough (shortened) translation
>>>> follows:
>>>>
>>>> Simplification of team joining
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Supported by: Peter, Roman, Laco, Ivan.
>>>>
>>>> Pavol offered improvements for his web form so it can be used as
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In April Pavol finished his work on the web form and I stated that on
>>>> the page (rough translation):
>>>>
>>>> Status as of 2010-04-20: The web form works as expected. I consider
>>>> this
>>>> issue resolved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nobody complained. It looked that we solved the issue with the
>>>> registration email.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> About a month after that Peter picked up this as a reason for the
>>>> coordinator change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Unfortunatelly, this is not true. Sometimes the workflow knowledge
>>>>> of
>>>>> > new members is poor.
>>>>>
>>>>> They managed to translate and upload the file? What else do they need
>>>>> to
>>>>> know about the workflow as long as they aren't reviewers/committers?
>>>>
>>>> At least two things:
>>>> 1. To use proper action for upload (if not the translation might be
>>>> overlooked by rest of the team).
>>>> 2. To reserve/upload again once the translation is returned back by a
>>>> reviewer.
>>>>
>>>>> Please note that translating the file means that you already had to
>>>>> setup lots of things.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. You need to download a file, start a random text editor, edit the
>>>> file, and finally upload it.
>>>>
>>>>> > I agree. Now, we are in process to have such rules set up.
>>>>>
>>>>> I really wonder that you don't already have translation rules? How did
>>>>> you manage to do things in the past? I think every half-way solid
>>>>> GTP-Team has at least some list of most-used terms.
>>>>
>>>> We are going to be a half-way solid GTP-Team hopefuly soon.
>>>>
>>>>> > > Reviewers will notice when there is an inconsistency within the
>>>>> strings
>>>>> > > and are able to point that out. I think most teams have no problem
>>>>> in
>>>>> > > sharing modules between different translators.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > True. This is why I am doing now final review for all modules. I
>>>>> hope
>>>>> > this will change soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reviewers != you - trust in them, they know the language!
>>>>
>>>> This is dangerous definition ("they know the language"). With some
>>>> generalization you said that everybody knows his language in a way
>>>> you'll trust them regararding the language matter. That is simply not
>>>> true.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > I disagree. It depends. Other translators can select other modules,
>>>>> so
>>>>> > the rules are same for everybody.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Some people does like to feel that this module is their work and
>>>>> they
>>>>> > are responsible and proud for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's ok, but they should then be able to provide a 100% translation
>>>>> by
>>>>> release date and if they cannot do that they will have to give up the
>>>>> module or at least open it for others.
>>>>
>>>> This would be true is everything else is at (or near) 100 %, but not
>>>> true if you are in the middle and there are plenty of untranslated (and
>>>> free) modules.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> +-------------------------------------------+
>>>> | Marcel Telka   e-mail:   marcel telka sk  |
>>>> |                homepage: http://telka.sk/ |
>>>> |                jabber:   marcel jabber sk |
>>>> +-------------------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnome-i18n mailing list
>>> gnome-i18n gnome org
>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnome-i18n mailing list
>> gnome-i18n gnome org
>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
>>
>
>
>