[Fwd: [GnomeMeeting-list] Re: Gnomemeeting not running over the net...]

[Damien Sandras <dsandras seconix com>]

-----Message suivi-----

> From: Hugh Daniel <hugh road toad com>
> To: Damien Sandras <dsandras seconix com>
> Cc: gnomemeeting-list gnome org, delaunoi info ucl ac be
> Subject: [GnomeMeeting-list] Re: Gnomemeeting not running over the net...
> Date: 23 Apr 2002 00:57:18 -0700
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
>   My sarcasm is based on frustration, I find things like gconf to be
> overly complex while adding little to the value of the entire system
> or at least programs like gnomemeeting.  This makes my system more
> brittle, which I considder a bad thing.
> 
>   I am trying to simply run gnomemeeting on host A and have the
> display come up on host B, nothing more.  It's not working and no one
> has bothered to write a man page for any of this, the help and about
> boxes are no use etc. etc. etc.
> 
>   It's too brittle.  It breaks too easily.  It's getting too dependent
> on various unstable poorly thoughtout and sadly documented parts.
> 
>   It's just getting to me... :r)
> 
>   By 'it' I mean linux, RedHat, Gnome and only a bit gnomemeeting which
> is at the long end of the chain being whipped about.
> 
> 
>   FYI on the page you pointed me at is the 'answer' to my problem:
> http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/
>  
>   Under the section title (which no one would bother to tag so I can't
> give you a direct link to...)):
> "How do I log in from two machines at once?"
> 
>   Is the answer to my query.  Thanks!  Oh, don't bother to pass this
> info on as it is completely useless, none of the files or commands
> mentioned exist...  Trying the ones that seem likely fails, the error
> messages never give me anything to work with etc.
> 
>   This is getting to be the EVERYDAY hell I fight in Linux land that
> is almost making me want to go back to SunOS 3.5 or some such rot.
> What good does it do me to have all the source in the world if none of
> it works or is even fixable (due to it's bloat)?
> 
> 
>   I was quite able to read your web page (and one of the best in our
> community at that!), I was just unwilling to submit a bug report via
> bugzilla or any web page portal.  I edit my bug reports in my local
> editor and send them in via email.  I would be happy to take an ASCII
> form and fill in a couple of fields used to sort the report.  Beyond
> that I find the web bug reporting interfaces to be horrid.
> 
>   So I am pushing folks to have bugs probject address.  What if I did
> NOT have a high speed line into the net but was only on the net via
> UUCP?  Don't laugh (if you even know what that is, it's getting a bit
> long in the tooth these days...) I have friends who are using UUCP and
> sometimes FTP and thats it for access to the net.  Really.
> 
>   It's at least secure.  Inside their house they are using V4L for a
> baby monitor though...
> 
> 
>   I did not find the doc for GConf and ORBit because they are not in
> the fricking system.  If they are not findable by "man -k THING" they
> are not Unix programs and don't belong on my system.  Period.
> 
>   I _am_ serious, crazy as it sounds.  Unix IS learnable due to things
> like the well thought out "information mapping" and permuted index
> that make up the man pages.  Not the horror that is info pages or
> HOWTO's, they are just easy ramps (the HOWTO's are useful in some few
> cases where your trying to copy exactly what someone else has done on
> the same hardware, with the same rev of the software, with the same
> librarys, etc. etc. etc.) for some beginner hobbyists.
> 
>   For some reason Gnomemeeting uses Gconf and therefor your somewhat
> responsible for it.  If you did not use it then I would be running the
> test I wanted to run by now, not that it was any big deal in the first
> place.
> 
> 
>   Your PGP2 key is kept in a DNS MX RR?  What?  You have to be kidding
> me!  Thats eaiser to do then finger?  Humm let me guess, convert the
> at sign to a dot and lets try it!:
> 
> ahost$ dig dsandras.seconix.com MX
> 
> ; <<>> DiG 9.1.3 <<>> dsandras.seconix.com MX
> ;; global options:  printcmd
> ;; Got answer:
> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 63909
> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
> 
> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> ;dsandras.seconix.com.		IN	MX
> 
> ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
> seconix.com.		10800	IN	SOA	seconix. root.seconix.com. 4 604800 86400 2419200 604800
> 
> ;; Query time: 141 msec
> ;; SERVER: 216.181.81.1#53(216.181.81.1)
> ;; WHEN: Mon Apr 22 23:22:16 2002
> ;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 86
> 
>   Humm, no PGP2 key hiding there so I guess I screwed it up.
> Rats... :r)
> 
>   If you use gpg (which is pretty useless I have to admit) then you
> could use the one piece of data you have about me, my email address,
> and get a key this way:
> 
> 	finger hugh xisp net | CENSORED
> 
>   Opps, I allmost screwed up there as my Lord President has "decreed"
> that I don't have Free Speach if it's crypto or crypto hole shaped if
> I am talking to non-holy Americans or some such rot.  Well it should
> be obvious from my sig at the bottom.
> 
> 
>   I am not at all worried about FreeS/WAN, I am quite worried about
> the Linux situation in general though and if it's all going to be at
> all useful in a few years.
> 
>   I would hate to have to chuck all the Free & Open Source Linux code
> and go back to *BSD because everyone in Linux land has Bill envy to
> the point where they don't even want to try to understand why Unix is
> so winning that Linux is a copy of it.
> 
>   Every time I hear that the kernel does not need working Makefile's
> my blood goes down 10 deg C in tempture.  Everytime someone like the
> OpenBSE SSH folks claim that shipping a GPL version is more important
> then script compatibility for thousands of lines of installed base my
> hope for the future take a nose dive.
> 
>   I am pushing you folks (the Linux Community), and begining to push
> HARD, to understand that just copying MS to get MS-GNU is _NOT_ good
> enough, no MS-GNU software is going to be in the computers of my
> starship (should I be so lucky...).  We have to do _better_ then both
> the greddy fools at MS _and_ better then the Unix folks.  We should be
> aspiring to what the Smalltalk folks could do, and even better.
> 
>   The Unix folks and the Smalltalk folks have DECADES on us, we have
> our work cut out for us, both to understand what came before and to
> create new that is as solid, robust, useful and flexable as what they
> have done before us.
> 
>   The real world is not using Linux yet, why?  Well lets go for an
> example.  I have been pushing my team real hard to use Gnomemeeting
> rather then RAT as gnomemeeting is being worked on (ie theres hope
> that it will get better, RAT is dead and I don't have time to fix it
> myself).  When we use gnomemeeting we have to give up and use the
> phones about 60% of the time.
> 
>   Even when we use it it's like using a phone in the 1930's, tough.
> Now thats in the middle of the night on VERY high speed lines (T1's or
> better even for the ends) and just going a few hundreds of kilometers.
> 
>   Now I have a few ideas how attack the problem (and I will be in
> Europe for 6 weeks where it seems you folks are), but most folks are
> just giving up and (very sadly) using MS-shit.  If we are lucky they
> end up on Apple...
> 
>   We really have to think, design and then code beyond the current
> limits of MS-design and even our own users expectations.  Otherwise
> folks will just believe what Gates marketdroids tell them on the boob
> tube and we will fade away or go down via some fascist laws about
> 'security'.
> 
>   So far we have been living off the capital of the brilliance of Unix
> and the hate of MS-everything, but both will fade in time and we will
> be left to our own devices and our own reputations.
> 
> 
>   Oh, no.  Why did I go look into my .gconf dir...  XML to save a few
> state variables that could be (need tobe...) command line arguments?
> What?
> 
>   Each time stamped?  The user is just a name and not even hashed to
> make it somewhat unique!  Your burning 84 kibibytes of my disk to save
> less then a single kibibyte of data?  Most of the data is repeating
> the schema string again and again!
> 
>   Maybe nautilus needs this hell, but something like gnomemeeting
> should not.  Was it really that much easyer to use gconf then to parse
> a foo=bar file?  Eighty four times easier?  Times every user out
> there?
> 
>   Yea I know XML is the "promised land", and I was one of the people
> who fucking INVENTED hypertext, but I am not seeing so much a
> wonderful future of XML heaven as I am seeing an infinite hell like
> the mid-east with XML growing over everything like cancerous
> cataracts...
> 
> 
>   Well you don't need this shit from me.  I have maybe three ideas to
> make VoIP more useful and would be interested in passing them on at
> some point while I am in Europe.  Maybe I could just write them up,
> but if any of you folks are going to be at RIPE or SANE I would be
> happy to buy you a bheer (me a fruit smoothie, California you know...)
> and bounce them off one of you.
> 
>   Good luck with gnomemeeting, it and the web site are least very
> visually slick!
> 
> 		||ugh Daniel
> 		hugh freeswan org
> 
> 			Systems Testing & Project mis-Management
> 			The Linux FreeS/WAN Project
> 			http://www.freeswan.org
> 
> PS: Opps, correction, a new version of RAT just came out!
> 
> 
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> Comment: For the matching public key, finger the Reply-To: address.
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-- 
 _	Damien Sandras
(o-	GnomeMeeting - H.323 Video-Conferencing application -
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v_/_	FOSDEM 2002  - Free Software and Open Source Developers Meeting -
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