Re: [Nautilus-list] Integration of gmc and nautilus desktop directories.

[Ben Ford <ben kalifornia com>]

Tuomas Kuosmanen wrote:

> On 12 Apr 2001 12:41:59 -0700, Darin Adler wrote:
>
> > > I heard about Tuomas' ~ idea for the desktop.  It is definetly an
> > > interesting concept, but one that might not fly given the current Unix
> > > user base.   That is just my feeling right now about Tuomas' idea
> > My feeling too.
>
> Yep. It's unfortunate I think. I think there is no real reason why it
> couldnt work, but in practice the discussion attempts on IRC were
> something like this:
>
> <tigert> Can $HOME be the desktop?
> <hacker> NO! That is WRONG! It is just plain evil!
> <tigert> Why not? Nautilus doesnt show your dotfiles on the 
>         desktop in any case.. It works very well for me with a
> temporary symlink to test it. And it makes a lot of sense that
> if you save a file to your homedir you can see it with Nautilus
> right there on the desktop!
> <hacker> But my homedir is a huge mess and it would be embarassing if
> everyone could see it! <- "hacker" misses the point here.
>
> Now at this point I tried to say something like "Well. it takes 10
> minutes to clean it up with nautilus.. and you make subdirs on your
> homedir anyway to organize your stuff, right?" but usually the emotional
> charge for even mentioning the "$HOME should be the desktop" is too
> strong for most people to overcome and actually listen to me.. Sigh.

I think it is the opposite.  I don't want all the application launcher 
files in my $HOME.

> I just think it is not good to require new users to learn that the files
> they save are in two different places. I talked with Garrett Le Sage
> (the linux.com artist guy) and he said he had a lot of trouble
> explaining to his family (he installed Linux with GNOME for them) that
> the files they saved did not go to the desktop, but they had to find
> them in this special directory. And those people were not
> never-used-a-pc-before -level, they had some computing experience
> beforehand. They learned how it worked and have no problem now. But
> should they need to learn such at thing at all?

Perhaps have an option (at install time?) to "Simplify directory 
layout.  (Use $home for the desktop)".  You could also add a button to 
the new and improved gtk/gnome file selector.  There'd be a button for 
"Go to Home Directory" and one for "Go to Desktop".

> I know this is not a perfect solution. Bad Things happen if you rename
> the ~/evolution or ~/Nautilus or ~/nsmail dirs for example. But all
> these things could be solved somehow. A list of "common things to hide
> on the desktop" for example. Maybe automatically hide those for Novice
> user level? Whatever.

Way too complex.  Not all file managers will implement it and people who 
shouldn't will set prefs. to advanced.  I know.  I provide tech support 
for them!

> The reason I am talking about this: On windows / mac there exists the
> File Selector. The File Selector knows about the desktop and defaults
> your saves there. But on Un*x there is no "The File Selector". There are
> "Legacy NON-GNOME Applications" like our dear web browser Mozilla. Or
> The Gimp. I dont think it is reasonable to assume that users will not
> use any non-gnome applications. Why should they learn to know where
> their desktop directory is?
Don't you think it is a little arrogant to call Mozilla and Gimp 
"legacy"?!?!?!?  Besides, Netscape has an ENV option of where to default 
downloads to.  When I ran RedHat, downloads defaulted to the gnome 
desktop.  (And I hated this)

> I also understand this can be a frightening experience for existing
> users - they are likely to freak out if their pr0n collection suddenly
> ends up as thumbnails on the desktop along with all the other crap they
> have on their $HOME.
>
>    http://tigert.gimp.org/things/my-homedir-is-my-desktop.jpeg 
>
> The above is what my desktop looked like after I symlinked it. So I know
> it gets messy. But the other thing is after 10 minutes it wasnt like
> that anymore. And I had planned to clean it up for 3 years now...
> Watch a hardcore shell-user love a graphical shell for a change :)
>
> Anyway, maybe I am fighting against windmills here.. It might not be a
> right time for this. Although I have used this for a while now and it
> just feels right. It works as I expect. And looks like I am not the only
> one. I encourage you to try it out for a while before you judge it. Feel
> free to flame me if you like, but try to give some reasons. I intended
> this as a serious discussion. I know the people dealing with user
> mailing lists say "I saved this file but now I cannot find it!" is a
> common problem.
I deal with this problem with windows users a *lot* more than unix 
users.  The thing that saves me . . that file selector dealie has a 
history.  I start another download and see where it defaults to.

> Can someone with real user interface experience give some real input on
> this so I know if I am on crack or not? :-) Or are we just trying to
> "Make UNIX not suck, as long as it does not involve my $HOME!" :)

I just dislike clutteredness.  I hate apps that fill my $HOME with loads 
of dot-this and dot-that files.  I'd much prefer a separate desktop dir 
(not dot-desktop) and a single .preferences directory that apps could 
fill with dot files to their hearts' content.

> Yes, I am frustrated a bit, try to bear with me.
>
> Tuomas
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Tuomas Kuosmanen - Art Director -
> Ximian - tigert ximian com -
> www.ximian.com
Even if you talk the gnome people into doing this, I doubt many others 
will follow.

-b

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