On Wed, 2019-05-01 at 15:53 +0200, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
Je mer, 2019-05-01 je 23:31 +1000, Michael Gratton skribis:On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 15:19, Carmen Bianca Bakker <carmen carmenbianca eu>I did however point out that Python has replaced uses of the term "master", and we should do the same.We should. But not all instances of "master" are equally problematic—that's the main debate here. I don't see anybody here disagreeing against replacing instances of master that are NOT related to Git.Because this has been addressed several times over already. From tonight alone:This has already been covered in the original proposal under objection (1) "It doesn't matter". As has already been discussed, what actually doesn't matter is what you or I think, it is the people who have been affected by the language we use that matter. These are the people who won't contribute to GNOME because of these terms, and it is the project that loses out in the end.You didn't demonstrate this. I suggested various ways to demonstrate this in a previous e-mail in this thread, but you completely ignored it.
To be honest, I would also be interested in exactly such a demonstration. In this thread people were somewhat rightfully called out for lines of reasoning that were not applicable to the problem at hand for various reasons. Yet, it seems that the original line of reasoning in favour of this change has similar issues, and even when asked for it no further evidence has apparently been provided. It is fair to say that the only thing that matters in your view is whether there is a group of people who is affected by this. However, this is a point that can be studied to some extend, yet it *appears* like we are only second guessing that the term "master" as used in this context is problematic for a group of people who we don't actually know much about. Yet this assumption is essential to whole argument and the conclusion that changing the name will make GNOME more inclusive. Now, maybe there is information available (maybe even in this thread already, I have *not* read the whole thread). But the current responses are evasive rather than producing the relevant evidence.
You keep asserting this to be true, but never back it up with anything other than references to other projects who renamed various instances of the word "master" (and "slave"), but none of them renamed the Git master branch. It's a false equivalence. Moreover, it's not enough to demonstrate that the word "master" sucks—it does. Rather, it needs to be demonstrated that the word—in this specific context(!!!)—is actively harmful and/or prevents contributions from people who object to its use.In any case, if you would care to actually read the diffs on the Python change, you'll see that it covered a number of instances of using another word for "master" when "slave" wasn't involved. It's not the pair of terms that is problematic, it's either term in isolation that is.It is telling that no one is complaining about replacing uses of "slave" by itself alone.This is not a charitable argument at all. There are uses of the word "master" that are not—in any way, shape or form—related to the practice of slavery. No such arguments can be made for the word "slave". I'm getting a bit tired of this back-and-forth, though. You don't want to entertain any argument against changing the name of the master branch at all, asserting that the word is completely verboten and any instance of it might harm the inclusivity of GNOME. You write off these arguments because they affect a group for whom you appear to speak, but you haven't demonstrated that this group exists, or that their interests align with what you claim. So I'm withdrawing conversation, because I've already said my bit a few times over and have been ignored a few times over. In summary, please consider: - Contacting several organisations who have more expertise on this subject to inform our next steps. - Contacting Git upstream (or places like GitHub/GitLab, why not) to change the name of the default branch. With kindness, Carmen _______________________________________________ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list gnome org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
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